Based on Malachi 3:16-18 I believe the Lord will harken to us as we consider his word together.
Fred (fnorthrup) said:
If you wish to refer to Jack Chick as an authority regarding the truth, I am fine with that also.
The web site is showing an excerpt from a book by David W Daniels and so not really from Jack Chick himself. Chick sells the book at his site but he is not the author of it.
As for Jack Chick, whether or not he still believes this way, but he had stated that all Catholics are going to hell which is something I do not believe. If a Catholic believes in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God has raised Him from the dead, they are saved even though they are engaging in the dead works of Catholicism as if that alone does not save them as if God gives more grace by having them do works like be a member of the Catholic Church & do the sacraments within her to obtain salvation by. Catholics are laboring in unbelief and although some Catholics will admit that they believe they are saved, by remaining in the Catholic Church, no one can see their faith in Jesus Christ and will just think they are staying within the church just in case they are wrong.
Catholics that believe they are saved, should leave the Catholic Church for God the Father to receive them as vessels unto honor in His House if they wish to avoid the risk of being left behind at the rapture event. One would think the other offense to God should be obvious when the RCC is being ecumenical in having an agreement with other world's religions.
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Then there is relying on Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd & friend to help them to follow Him daily by looking to Him to enable them to lay aside every weight & sin daily ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ) in order to walk in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son ( 1 John 1:3-9 ). Running that race is all about discipleship in living that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ.
Fred (fnorthrup) said:
As for the controversy regarding 1 John 5:7 there are many easily accessible articles online which explain in great detail why it is controversial, and why many, or most English versions do not contain the "The Trinitarian formula (known as the Comma Johanneum)" Here is an example: https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8
From that link you provided;
"The reading seems to have arisen in a fourth century Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text used by the Roman Catholic Church." end of quote
From the Chick site; https://www.chick.com/information/article?id=is-i-john-5:7-missing-from-older-manuscripts There are extrabiblical sources confirming 1 John 5:7 as originally scripture going further back than the fourth century.
|200 AD||Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25.|
|250 AD||Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)|
|350 AD||Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]|
|350 AD||Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]|
|350 AD||Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione|
|398 AD||Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism|
|415 AD||Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)|
|450-530 AD||Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
Now Jesus gave us a warning from the Father in John 14:23-24 that those who do not love Him, will not keep His words and the words of His disciples in John 15:20 and so I am going with 1 John 5:7 regarding the 3 Witnesses because it aligns with 1 John 5:9 for how and why God's witness is greater then the witness of men because there are 3 Witnesses within that One God. Since John had written John 8:17 for how the witnesses of two men is true, then how can the singular Witness of the One God be greater than the witnesses of men when God would need more than One Witness to establish a testimony as true? Therefore as God requires of men to establish a true witness and a testimony, is how God does this too in following His word as the Triune God.
Fred (fnorthrup) said:
I had much discussion with a co-worker regarding this verse. His position was that Satan had this verse removed from modern versions because that diluted the truth concerning the Trinity in the Scriptures. He also was a Jack Chick fan.
I am not really a fan of Jack Chick. We are to prove everything with the Lord Jesus Christ, regardless of how someone may expose the works of darkness but is wrong about condemning them as if they were never saved or were never believers before the time comes. By His grace & by His help, we are called to expose the works of darkness in calling saved believers to depart from them.
We really should not be a fan of anyone because they are subject to error as well, which is why Jesus Christ has to be your personal Good Shepherd to help you to follow Him & abide in His words.
1 Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
https://www.chick.com/information/article?id=is-i-john-5:7-missing-from-older-manuscripts <----- Although this site offers explanation as to why the original 1 John 5:7 was removed to combat some heresy, I believe His words from the Father that they did not loved Him enough to keep His words nor the words of His disciples, especially John. John 14:23-24 & 15:20
You have to wonder why Jesus shared that warning from the Father unless to prophesy that we will need His help to discern which source documents was kept by those who loved Him to keep His words. Indeed, the argument that the oldest manuscripts are the best manuscripts, thinking they contain the truth in His words from the earliest times, should be acknowledged that because they were old, they were not being used and worn out sooner for why copies would be needed and so they were not loving Him nor His words unlike the ones from Antioch.
Indeed, Gnosticism means secret or hidden knowledge as I suspect that they were the ones using tongues for private use as if that is how they are edified and so the written scriptures goes to the wayside for their daily self edification. No mystery there for why their manuscripts were the oldest manuscripts. This is what happens when believers take 1 Corinthians 14:4 out of context of that entire chapter when Paul says tongues are unfruitful to the tongue speaker until it is interpreted by another to understand that tongue to be truly edified by that tongue which is why he was comparing tongues against prophesy for why prophesy is better in verse 4. Tongues can edify when it is interpreted whereas prophesy is understood right away.
Fred (fnorthrup) said:
I had been studying the Bible for many years and could quote from memory a list of verses which plainly refer to the Triune God, so this argument did not work for me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him (the Son) we both have access by one Spirit (the Holy Spirit) unto the Father. 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God (the Father) and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. In reality, the Triune God is revealed in the Scriptures from end to end, both directly and by signs. Here is the Triune God revealed in signs: Revelation 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life (the Holy Spirit) clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God (the Father) and the Lamb (the Son.) We can interpret the river as the Spirit because John 7:38-39 says the river of living water is the Spirit. Praise the Lord for the Bible! Praise the Lord for the life, the light, the life-supply contained in this Book!!!!
It is true that not every scripture has been dropped or changed at Alexandria, but that is all one needed to sow doubts in His words for why Gnosticism capitalized upon tongues for private use. They do not have to read the whole collection of the N.T. , let alone the whole epistle, but just the scripture they can use towards their own false teachings.
Fred (fnorthrup) said:
I have no problem with you referring to the King James version brother. Praise the Lord that you have a heart for the Word. It is the incorruptible seed through which we are born of God.(1 Peter 1:23) God's word is living and operative and sharper than a two edged sword, even dividing the soul and spirit (Hebrews 4:12). In the beginning was the Word...and the Word is God. (John 1:1) Grace to you
Thanks for the support. Hopefully, the Lord will help you see why I rely on the KJV for the meat of His words in discerning good & evil for following Him and although the KJV is not a perfect bible, modern Bibles do change the message enough to support false teachings and apostasy in these latter days where faith is hard to find.
Now Jesus gave us a warning from the Father in John 14:23-24 that those who do not love Him, will not keep His words and the words of His disciples in John 15:20 and so I am going with 1 John 5:7 regarding the 3 Witnesses because it aligns with 1 John 5:9 for how and why God's witness is greater then the witness of men because there are 3 Witnesses within that One God.
No problem at all brother. We are having a discussion as to why these verses are controversial, which I find interesting.
From my Bible, The Recovery Version: Here are the verses 1 John 5:6-9 This is He who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ; not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood; and the Spirit is He who testifies, because the Spirit is the reality. For there are three who testify, The Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are unto the one thing. If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, because this is the testimony of God that He has testified concerning His Son.
The three three that testify, according to this version, are the Spirit and the water and the blood.
God has testified concerning His Son by the water He went through at His baptism (Matt. 3:16-17; John 1:31)
By the blood he shed on the cross (John 19:31-35; Matt. 27:50-54)
And also by the Spirit which He gave not by measure (John 1:32-34; 3:34)
By these three God has testified that Jesus is His Son given to us, that in Him we may receive His eternal life by believing into His name.
The water of baptism terminates people of the old creation by burying them; the blood shed on the cross redeems those whom God has chosen from among the old creation; and the Spirit, who is the truth, the reality of life, germinates those whom God had redeemed out of the old creation by regenerating them with the divine life. Thus they are born of God and become His children and live a life that practices the truth, the will of God, the righteousness of God, and the love of God, for His expression.
I believe with all my heart the our God is triune, but I do not need the 1611 KJV to prove that, at least for myself. For me, the translation above makes more sense when compared to 1John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
It is not the testimony of the divine Trinity, but the Father testifying of the Son, by the Spirit, the water, and the blood.
Tongues is important, yes, but it not something to get hung up on (it’s certainly not from the Devil or pagan).
Again, seeking God through prayer and fasting is the main goal.
It is hard to be balanced in the truth. Speaking in tongues is promoted to the heavens by the Pentecostals, and condemned as demonic by the Fundamentalists. The Apostle Paul neither promoted nor condemned speaking in tongues, but he did promote prophesying.
1 Corinthians 14:5 I desire that you all speak in tongues, but especially that you would prophesy; and greater is he who prophesies than he who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, that the church may receive building up.
My feeling at this point is that I do not feel comfortable condemning something that is in the Scriptures, not do I have any desire to promote speaking with tongues. There are better ways to exercise our spirit and drink from the fountain of Life for the building up of the Body of Christ.
Bible forums seem to attract those who are on a crusade of some kind. O, that we were all hungry to know the Living God!
Psalm 42:1-2 As the hart pants After the streams of water, So my soul pants For You, O God. My soul thirsts for God, For the living God. When will I come and appear before God?