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From:  RC3071  22/12/2001 17:31 
to: ALL  1 of 12 
 713.1 
Many people believe there is nothing that can be known about the timing of the Lord's return because Jesus said He would return like a thief in the night (Matthew 24:42-44).

But Paul makes it clear in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 that Jesus' statement does not apply to believers: "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief. . ." He then proceeds to explain why: "for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober." Paul is referring, of course, to the light of the Holy Spirit who indwells all true believers and who can enlighten us through our study of Scripture to know the season of the Lord's return (1 John 2:27).

God's Attitude
As a matter of fact, God is obligated by His character to warn the world of the imminent return of His Son. The reason is that Jesus is returning in great wrath to "judge and wage war" (Revelation 19:11), and God never pours out His wrath without warning.
God does not wish that any should perish, but that all should be brought to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Therefore, God always warns before He executes His wrath. He warned the world through Noah for 120 years. He warned Sodom and Gomorrah through Abraham. He sent Jonah to warn the pagan city of Ninevah, and He sent Nahum to the same city 150 years later.

Likewise, God is warning the world today that His Son is about to return. He is calling the world to repentance. The message of the hour to unbelievers can be summed up in these words: "Flee from the wrath that is to come by fleeing into the loving arms of Jesus now." Jesus came the first time as an expression of God's love; He came to die for the sins of Mankind. But when He returns, He will come in vengeance to pour out the wrath of God on those who have rejected God's love and grace.

The soon return of Jesus also carries with it a message for believers. Lukewarm Christians and carnal Christians are being called to commit their lives to holiness: "The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand. Let us therefore lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts." (Romans 13:12-14)

God's Method of Warning

God is alerting believers of the soon return of His Son through what are called "signs of the times." These are prophecies concerning world events that we are told to watch for, prophecies that will identify the season of the Lord's return.
The Bible is full of these signs. There are about 500 prophecies in the Old Testament that relate to the Second Coming of the Messiah. In the New Testament, one out of every 25 verses is concerned with the return of Jesus.

In fact, there are so many signs that it is difficult to grasp all of them. The best way I have found to do this is to put them in categories:

1) The Signs of Nature — We are told to watch for earthquakes, famine, pestilence, and signs in the heavens (see Matthew 24:7 and Luke 21:11).

This is the least respected category of signs for several reasons. For one thing, many people simply shrug their shoulders and say, "There have always been natural calamities, so what else is new?" Note that Jesus says these signs will be like "birth pangs" (Matthew 24:8) — that is, they will increase in frequency and intensity as the time draws near for His return. In other words, there will be more intense earthquakes and more frequent ones. That is exactly what is happening today.

Another reason these signs are given little respect is because most Christians are so rationalistic that they do not really believe in the supernatural, and they therefore find it difficult to believe that God speaks to the world through signs of nature. Yet, the Bible teaches this principle from start to finish.

God dealt with the world's sin through a great flood in the days of Noah (Genesis 6). He called the nation of Judah to repentance through a terrible locust invasion (Joel 1). In like manner, He called for the nation of Israel to repent by sending drought, wind storms, mildew, locusts, famine and pestilence (Amos 4:6-10). The prophet Haggai pointed to a drought as evidence that God was calling the people to get their priorities in order (Haggai 1:10-11).

The New Testament begins with a special light in the heavens marking the birth of the Messiah (Matthew 2:2). On the day that Jesus was crucified, there was three hours of darkness and an earthquake (Matthew 27:45-51). And when Jesus returns, the earth will experience the greatest earthquake in its history as every mountain is lowered, every valley is raised, and every island is moved (Revelation 16:17-21).

God has always spoken through signs of nature, and He continues to do so today. We had better pay close attention to them.

2) The Signs of Society — Jesus said that society will become increasingly lawless and immoral as the time approaches for His return. In fact, He said it would become as evil as it was in the days of Noah (Matthew 24:12,37-39).

Paul paints a chilling picture of end time society in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. He says it will be characterized by three loves — the love of self (Humanism), the love of money (Materialism), and the love of pleasure (Hedonism). He then points out that the payoff of this carnal lifestyle will be what the philosophers call Nihilism — that is, a society wallowing in despair. Men's minds will become depraved (Romans 1:28), and people will call evil good and good evil (Isaiah 5:20).

We are seeing these prophecies fulfilled before our eyes today as we watch our society reject its Christian heritage and descend into a hellish pit of lawlessness, immorality, and despair. Even worse, we are exporting our nihilism around the world through our immoral and violent movies and television programs.

3) The Spiritual Signs — There are both positive and negative spiritual signs that we are to watch for. The negative ones include the appearance of false christs and their cults (Matthew 24:5,11,24), the apostasy of the professing church (2 Thessalonians 2:3), an outbreak of Satanism (1 Timothy 4:1), and the persecution of faithful Christians (Matthew 24:9)

These negative spiritual signs began to appear in the mid-19th Century when Christian cults started forming. First came the Mormons, then the Jehovah's Witnesses, and then a great variety of spiritualist groups like the Church of Christ Scientists and the Unity Church.

The apostasy of the mainline Christian denominations began in the 1920's when the German school of higher criticism invaded American seminaries and undermined the authority of the Scriptures, teaching that the Bible is Man's search for God rather than God's revelation to Man.

During the 1960's Satanism exploded on the American scene and has since been exported worldwide through American movies, books, and television programs. Dabbling in the occult has become commonplace in the form of astrology, numerology, crystal gazing, transcendental meditation, and channeling. The whole trend ...[Message truncated]

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From:  PsiCop (psicop278)  DelphiPlusMember Icon 22/12/2001 18:27 
to: RC3071  2 of 12 
 713.2 in reply to 713.1 
Equally significant, He added an interesting observation: "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matthew 24:34). What generation? The generation that sees the fig tree blossom.

We are that generation. The fig tree has blossomed. Jesus is at the gates.

OK. Let me try to follow this. Correct me if I got it wrong.

As a metaphorical way of representing the destruction of Israel, Jesus curses a tree. He then goes on to describe what will happen in "the end times." He then says that "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

Now, the destroyed Israel is reborn, in 1948. Thus, the metaphorical cognate of the tree (not the real tree, we have no way to know what's become of it!) is restored. Thus, somehow, all the things that Jesus mentioned, in the presence of the cursed tree, are going to come to pass.

Trouble is ... it's been 53 years since Israel was restored. Much longer ago than just "one generation." More like 2 generations.

Oh, wait. I forgot. Divine time doesn't work the same as our own. So God must have meant something else!

Let's do the math, shall we?

If a day of God-time is 1,000 years for us, then divine time is 365,000 times slower than our own. So a divine generation, of 25 divine years, is really 9,125,000 of our own years.

If we use that standard, then we are in no danger whatsoever of witnessing "the second coming." It will come to pass about the year 9,126,973 AD.

If, however, you still insist that "the end is near," then your previous assumption that divine time works differently than ours, must be wrong. In which case, Jesus is now 28 years too late, by his own reckoning.

Looks like you're wrong, no matter what interpretation you use or how many hurdles you try to jump ... !

Either the Lord meant what he said, or he didn't, & that's all there is to it.

I won't even address the issue of how the tree cursed by Jesus has anything to do with what he told people. That is an absurdity that stands out, on its own, & needs no further comment from me.

 
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From:  Peter (PMELDRUM)  DelphiPlusMember Icon 22/12/2001 18:28 
to: RC3071  3 of 12 
 713.3 in reply to 713.1 
> reject its Christian heritage and descend into a hellish pit of lawlessness, immorality, and despair. <

Get a life Russ, get a girl, get married, start a family and this whole thing will drop into the proper perspective !!

You're obsessing, get help, take your meds.

Peter

Antibible Forum
 
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From:  Shae (shaybac)  DelphiPlusMember Icon 22/12/2001 20:27 
to: RC3071  4 of 12 
 713.4 in reply to 713.1 

Likewise, God is warning the world today that His Son is about to return. He is calling the world to repentance. ... But when He returns, He will come in vengeance to pour out the wrath of God on those who have rejected God's love and grace.

Before the suppossed coming of the Christian Messiah, the Jews were, according to the Bible, God's people.  They earned "salvation" according to their works, that is, their behavior.  

But now we have the Christian message that the rules have changed.  One is no longer judged by one's behavior.  As you say, one is judged solely on whether or not they have "rejected God's love and grace."  

Those who have 'rejected' this 'love and grace' have chosen to be appart from this deity.  Now, what is the nature of the revenge (vengeance is revenge) for this rejection? 

In the more commonly believed ideology, they will burn in hell for eternity.  This would apply to the most honest, generous, and moral of those who has 'rejected' the Christian God.  This rejection, of course, includes those millions who never heard of this Christ; and there are, in North Korea, etc., people who have not heard even today.

Persons whose 'works' include murder, rape, child abuse, etc., but who later have accepted the Christian Messiah, on the other hand, will receive eternal reward.

A man who has raped and tortured several 3 year old girls will rejoice in heaven, while the honest, generous, and moral Hindu mother, along with her children, is tortured in hell for eternity.  Many, including Christians, have come to recognize that this does not fit the definition of loving justice. 

While some will say that the rapists guilt at time of salvation is his punishment, it is hard to reconcile what would be a mere blink in eternal time spent in emotional discomfort as comparable to an eternity of torture by fire.

In response, an alternate scenerio has been imaged.  One in which the 'rejectors' are punished by the pain of being separated from the Christian God.  But many have chosen to be separated from this deity already.  Receiving an eternity of what they desire is hardly punishment.

In either scenerio we are left with an ideology in which sins are not punished.  Ony one sin, the rejection of the Christian deity's favor, is punishable.  This is what the quote from your post clearly agrees with.

Only one who is determined to believe this ideology would accept this as consistant with the idea of a loving and just deity.  The rest of us see nothing either loving or just in this ideology, and reject it for the lunacy it is.

 

Shay

A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.
- Mark Twain

 
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From:  Shae (shaybac)  DelphiPlusMember Icon 22/12/2001 21:10 
to: RC3071  5 of 12 
 713.5 in reply to 713.1 

1) The Signs of Nature — We are told to watch for earthquakes, famine, pestilence, and signs in the heavens ... that is, they will increase in frequency and intensity as the time draws near for His return. In other words, there will be more intense earthquakes and more frequent ones. That is exactly what is happening today.

If you search past posts you will see a number of links to natural disaster and weather sites where you will find information showing that this is not happening.

At the supposed time of Christ, the life expectancy of the most well off classes was comparable to that in third world countries today.  Famine and pestilence has decreased, not increased. 

2) The Signs of Society — Jesus said that society will become increasingly lawless and immoral as the time approaches for His return. In fact, He said it would become as evil as it was in the days of Noah

To which society to you refer?  In the US crime rates have decreased over the last 25 years.  We have changed our definition of morality so that now acts that were moral in past centuries is now unacceptable.  Child and spouse abuse; stoning of those who sleep with the wrong partner; child labor; etc., all these were once accepted behavior but are now condemned.

While it is true that the media, whose goal is to sell their product, and governmental agencies whose continued power is dependent upon a belief that lawlessness is increasing, try to convince us that it is increasing, the fact is that it is not.  Search prior posts; links are given for those statistics also.

But, even if it were true that lawlessness is increasing in the USA, what does that have to do with the Biblical prediction?  The USA is merely one society among hundreds, if not thousands.  How does one determine which one of those is the one to which the Biblical prediction refers? 

The most frequently repeated prophecy in the Old Testament is the prediction that the Jewish people will be regathered from the "four corners of the earth" in the end times. ... The Bible states that a consequence of this regathering will be the reestablishment of the state of Israel. ... The Scriptures say that once the Jews are back in their land, the land itself will experience a miracle of reclamation.  The desert will bloom and people will exclaim, "This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden"

While a state called Israel was formed in 1948, in a portion of the lands the Bible describes as belonging to the Israelites this was neither a "reestablishment" of the State of Israel nor a regathering of the Jews from the "four corners of the earth."

Outside the Bible there is no evidence that a State of Israel ever actually existed before.  There is some evidence that two small 'kingdoms' existed in the area, but for the united state there no evidence.

And only a small portion of world Jews reside in Israel.  In fact less than 30% of the world's Jews live in Israel.  20% of the world's 15 million Jews live in the US; so there are almost as many Jews in the US as there is in Israel.

The population of Israel is about 5.5 million, but only about 80% of those are Jewish.

So, we are a long way from seeing the fulfillment of the requirement that the "Jewish people will be regathered from the four corners of the earth." 

The positive spiritual signs include the proclamation of the Gospel to the whole world.

This is another requirement that is centuries or more from fulfillment.  There are millions in North Korea and China who have never heard the name "Jesus Christ".

Even if your end-time requirements were correct, they are no closer to being fulfilled today than they were in 30 CE.  Given the continued dispersement of the Jewish people and the millions to whom the Gospel has not been proclaimed, it must be said that your imagined end-times could not begin during your lifetime, or even during that of your children.

Like "Delta Dawn" of the song of the same name, you stand, wilted flower pinned to your breast, in wait of a long lost lover.  But the moment of your death will find you still in this world, and no closer to your dream of the suffering of 2/3rds of the world's people (as promised in Revelations).  How disappointing that must be; not to get to see all us heretics burn. 

Shay

A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.
- Mark Twain

 
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From:  Allantopoles  23/12/2001 06:51 
to: Peter (PMELDRUM)  DelphiPlusMember Icon  6 of 12 
 713.6 in reply to 713.3 
Rats, I saw this too late to delete the thread. It already has intelligent replies.

We need a few more Christians who are a bit more challenging than Russ.

Al.

Assistant Manager, The AntiBible Project

 
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From:  Peter (PMELDRUM)  DelphiPlusMember Icon 23/12/2001 07:41 
to: Allantopoles  7 of 12 
 713.7 in reply to 713.6 
After the ME fiasco we need a period of quiet with mild contoversy.

No, Russ isn't great, but right now he's keeping the place going.

Relax, enjoy the holidays :-)

Peter

Antibible Forum
 
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From:  Allantopoles  23/12/2001 07:57 
to: Peter (PMELDRUM)  DelphiPlusMember Icon  8 of 12 
 713.8 in reply to 713.7 
ME3150? God preserve us! No, we don't want to be buried. Don't think I am saying we want THAT to happen again.

Al.

Assistant Manager, The AntiBible Project

 
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From:  Peter (PMELDRUM)  DelphiPlusMember Icon 23/12/2001 08:05 
to: Allantopoles  9 of 12 
 713.9 in reply to 713.8 
Nah, you're just all twitchy with withdrawal pangs :-))

Know the symptoms !!

:-)))

Peter

Antibible Forum
 
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From:  DonaldBarber  25/12/2001 13:48 
to: Shae (shaybac)  DelphiPlusMember Icon  10 of 12 
 713.10 in reply to 713.5 
There are millions in North Korea and China who have never heard the name "Jesus Christ". >>>

I remember when I went to a fundamentalist church, the way they'd get around that was the idea that God could make 'special arrangements' for people who hadn't heard of Jesus. Essentially the way it 'worked' was, your name is written in the Book of Life (I guess at conception? maybe from the Beginning, after all, omniscient...yada yada yada). It stays in there until the moment the Truth of Jesus is evealed to you, either through personal testimony, watching a sermon on TBN, or if the Holy Spirit approaches you directly (supposedly, it happens) At that point, if you reject it, your name is automatically stricken from the Book of Life. Presumably, you can always lobby to get back in, until, of course, you die, and your fate is sealed.

Of course, if this scenario were true, and Christians were as 'loving' as they claim to be, then the most loving thing they could do is to KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT!!! Every time a fundamentalist mentions Jesus to someone who doesn't 'accept' that message, they have condemned that person to an eternity in Hell. Many Christians will say they are just doing what Jesus told them to do, but that's no excuse. They know exactly what they're doing (setting someone up for damnation) whereas in most cases their target doesn't have a clue about their malicious intentions.

Of course, this diatribe only applies to those Christians who believe in eternal damnation. The vast majority may, but there are notable exceptions. There is something emotionally compelling abt the creator of the universe wanting Her creation to be reconciled to Her, but the damnation adds an ugly element.

 
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From:  Shae (shaybac)  DelphiPlusMember Icon 25/12/2001 21:39 
to: DonaldBarber  11 of 12 
 713.11 in reply to 713.10 

then the most loving thing they could do is to KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT!!! Every time a fundamentalist mentions Jesus to someone who doesn't 'accept' that message, they have condemned that person to an eternity in Hell.

Excellent point!!!!

Shay

A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.
- Mark Twain

 
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From:  robocoastie  DelphiPlusMember Icon 27/12/2001 09:43 
to: DonaldBarber  12 of 12 
 713.12 in reply to 713.10 
Yes indeed it's an odd paradox. Let's face it Christianity today bears little to no resemblance what the followers of "the way" actually believed. The creation of 'christianity/RCC' was another way to control the people which is why the number 1 form of conversion is by breeding believers not prozelytizing and critical religeous and science studies they hate because it gives a chance for the children to see that they've been brainwashed and bred in.

There's hope, keep pointing out these paradoxes I wouldn't have made such a bold statement six months ago. Of course the xtian answer is oh you never believed in the first place ... yeah ok whatever.

sigh,

Rob

 
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