Bible Topics & Bible Studies -  God's Desire is that All Men be Saved! (555 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostJan-23 9:16 AM 
To: Waite_0 (Waite_01)  (11 of 48) 
 40219.11 in reply to 40219.8 

bob>God wants ALL to come, calvinsim says only a very few can come.

Are you citing a direct quote or are you citing what you think they are saying?

bob>Calvinism says only those few who are predestined to be saved before they are born will be saved and nothing they do in this life can ever change that. We see that the majority of the world is not Christian, so the majority of mankind IS NOT predestined to be saved per calvinism and they have no chance to ever be saved no matter what they do in this life, they were predestined to hell, per calvinism. It's a lie, it's confusing it lead people away from God instead of to Him and it says God does not want ALL TO COME, just opposite of the bible!  

bob>Calvinism says everyone CAN"T be saved, as one has to be predestined before they are born to be saved or not and NOTHING one does in this life can ever change their predestination. It has a fundamental flaw in that it does not know a few were predestined to SERVE, not to be saved. 

Again, is that a direct quote from Calvinism or is that a summary or an assumption on their points that you have contention with, mainly with predestination?  If you can cite a link to that "quote", please do.

bob>You doubt it, when the majority of the world is not Christian? 

bob>Then you just debunked Calvinism, which is the right thing to do! 

Cutting off from my quote is an example of not getting the whole point of my view which is why I have to wonder if you are doing the same with Calvinism.  I can disprove several points in regards to T.U.L.I.P. but that is not saying I can disprove everything Calvinism presents. Some are of the truth, but some are not.  You and I have to prove everything by the scripture.  We can't ignore certain section of scripture because we do not like what He says because it does not align with our present beliefs.

bob>So, if you disagree with only one point of TULIP, it's all wrong!  Predestination is of a very few people to SERVE not to be saved... 

It's like this,  taking a verse like Jesus testifying to the Father as being "My God.." from which some attributed that to mean that Jesus is not God is shortsighted.  We can find Jesus saying He is God as the God men had seen in the O.T. before Jesus became incarnated as written about by Moses in John 5:39-40 & 46-47 and He referring to having met Abraham in His day in John 8:56-59 for which He almost got stoned by the Jews for saying that He was that Lord, is how we are to apply that scripture earlier towards the truth that Jesus is referring to His higher authority for why He is called Father and thus is "My God, but that in no way negates His own deity at all.  Indeed, when asked by the high priest if He was the Son of the living God, hence God, that was why He was crucified for He confirmed that truth and it was why they had perceived Him as committing blasphemy.  Matthew 26:63-65

Anyway.. I believe the whole thing of our conversation is hinged on the subject of free will.

bob>Freewill is all thru the bible, I have it, the says "choose God" that means you have a freewill choice to make, you can go either way to choose or reject, it's our freewill call, right? 

  So do entertain the possibility that because of the gap theory in regards to creation week, you are not seeing His words in regards to free will.  So hopefully, we can address that topic in the next post to keep this one short rather than a lengthy novel for you to read.

 


 

 
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From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostJan-23 9:21 AM 
To: Waite_0 (Waite_01)  (12 of 48) 
 40219.12 in reply to 40219.9 

bob>God wants ALL to come, you can't get away from that! God gave each of us the freewill do follow Him or reject Him, it's our call. 

But if God wants all to come then how can we all come when it is up to our free will?  That free will does not necessarily testify of God wanting all to come when obviously not everyone comes. 

bob>He want us to use our freewill to come to Him, freewill is the system God uses to see who loves Him. 

So let us talk about free will.  How much power is there in that free will for man to come to God by?

bob>Freewill is so powerful that we can even use it to reject God. Jonah, knew God, he didn't doubt that God existed yet he used his freewill to reject God's direct command to him and ran from God via his freewill. 

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

bob>That's Christ, we get to God via Christ. 

How about our ability to see the truth to believe in the Son to be saved?

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Why does the Father reveal and draw some to the Son and not others?

bob>God wants ALL TO COME, much of the world is caught up in false religions, those people may never hear about Christ in this life,  they may get a chance in the 1000 years. We are to do our part in reaching them and spreading the good news. 


 

 

 
From: Waite_0 (Waite_01)Jan-23 1:01 PM 
To: GISMYS  (13 of 48) 
 40219.13 in reply to 40219.10 
GISMYS said...

 

PTL. God does draw ALL to Himself!! Accept His love, mercy, forgiveness, and gift of salvation or reject Him = your choice!
Timothy 2;4 God==desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

1 Timothy 2:Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I would say that Paul is testifying to the power of God in being able to save all as the ransom is available to all so that no sinner will think he or she is beyond redemption, but not everyone will come to the Son to believe in Him to be saved because they prefer their evil deeds ( John 3:18-21 ) for why the Father will not draw them unto the Son ( John 6:44 ) to reveal His Son to them so they can believe in Him to be saved. Matthew 11:25-27

 

 
From: Waite_0 (Waite_01)Jan-23 1:12 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (14 of 48) 
 40219.14 in reply to 40219.11 

bob>God wants ALL to come, calvinsim says only a very few can come.

Are you citing a direct quote or are you citing what you think they are saying?

bob>Calvinism says only those few who are predestined to be saved before they are born will be saved and nothing they do in this life can ever change that. We see that the majority of the world is not Christian, so the majority of mankind IS NOT predestined to be saved per calvinism and they have no chance to ever be saved no matter what they do in this life, they were predestined to hell, per calvinism. It's a lie, it's confusing it lead people away from God instead of to Him and it says God does not want ALL TO COME, just opposite of the bible!

Until you provide a link citing that plainly, I still think you are giving a summary conclusion to a teaching point of Calvinism rather than a direct quote.  Granted, many say things hypocritical of what they meant and there are some that say things that oppose themselves.  As iron sharpen iron, one has to turn to scripture for proof of any teaching or reproof of false teaching. 

Let's talk about predestination then.  It may not be as Calvin taught it, but let us discuss it as found in scripture.  Explain these verses in Romans.  Do they not show God control or predestination over man in disregards to this supposed free will?

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and t
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From: Waite_0 (Waite_01)Jan-23 1:18 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (15 of 48) 
 40219.15 in reply to 40219.11 

bob>So, if you disagree with only one point of TULIP, it's all wrong!  Predestination is of a very few people to SERVE not to be saved...

My point is.. if you disagree with any point of Catholicism, does that mean everything that is Christianity is wrong as the world would think?  No.

So each point of T.U.L.I.P. has to be reproved by scripture.  You have to be precise or you can mislead others into thinking everything T.U.L.I.P. says is false just because one point of T.U.L.I.P. is false.

You have to set the example that everything about T.U.L.I.P. has to be reproved by scripture or otherwise, readers will just find one fault with your teachings and just write off everything you say about Jesus Christ as false, regardless if it is found in scripture as being of the truth. Each of us has to rove or disprove everything that comes our way by the scripture with His help and wisdom or we are creating a slippery slope when condemning everything

 

 
From: Waite_0 (Waite_01)Jan-23 1:48 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (16 of 48) 
 40219.16 in reply to 40219.11 

bob>Freewill is all thru the bible, I have it, the says "choose God" that means you have a freewill choice to make, you can go either way to choose or reject, it's our freewill call, right? 

I read from something, the Daily Bread or the Upper room, at one time that the saying at the bottom was stressed by the Lord in that daily reading.  It said "Decide this day Whom you will serve;  the Lord Jesus Christ or something else in His name"

I could not fathom why the Lord was stressing this to me and so I said, "You of course." out loud, but the urgency remained.  So I said, "Please help me to do this."  Then the urgency subsided.  About a week later in going on vacation with my folks to visit my aunt in Missouri, I was confronted by the apostasy of the holy laughter movement happening in her community church.

First, they showed newcomers a video of what had happened a week earlier where some guest preacher was trying to preach a sermon on the tragedy of Samson and Delilah but he kept getting interrupted by his own smirks and giggles and soon the congregation was laughing slightly with him.  Then he stopped preaching when he was laughing softly and said out loud, "I don't know what the Holy Spirit is doing, but let us all come forward..." and so they did. In the process of this coming forward, many were laughing and then falling downward laughing.  After the video, we went to the service where they had several young people testify to feeling what they had assumed to be the "Holy Spirit" coming over them and their loss of self control and confusion by it.  Then the pastor said "I do not know  wat the Holy Spirit is doing but we are going to go along with this."  Then he closed with "No man can move the Holy Spirit, but man must move out of the way and the holy Spirit will move in."  Later, I saw that as a rudiment of a new age concept as well as a rudiment in the world in how sinners receive the supernatural as well, but I had no clue as to what was going on at that time.

I felt a hand push me 3 times from behind but no one was around me behind my pew or the next row beyond to do that.  As I looked around, I spotted a woman seeing me looking around and moved from her pew in another section to make her way behind my pew to walk to the other end so he can walk down and stand next to me where she did her "slain in the spirit" act in falling back in her pew next to me.  I saw her eyes moving about underneath to see if I was looking at her, and then disregarded her as pulling an act for attention.  But I did felt that hand 3 times pushing me which I took to mean to go forward.  And forward I went.  I took that time hoping maybe this will be when God will heal me of my deaf left ear and my tinnitus in my right ear, but it was not so at all.  While I was praying the guy lightly pushed my forehead to cause me to fall backwards to be caught by 2 guys to lower me to the ground.  I did not lose any self control or anything.  I was instructed that this was to be so and I let them do that.  However, no healing and nothing else happened.  I got up and left.

It was when I got to my aunt's house, and looking in my Bible that a newsletter from David Wilkerson on "The Role of the Holy Spirit" that the Lord showed me that what I had felt in the worship place was not the Holy Spirit at all.  Later as He continued to edify me on that incident, it was the spirit of the antichrist that I had felt in the worship place since the real Holy Spirit has been in me since salvation.  The Holy Spirit will testify of the Son to glorify he Son and not share in that spotlight at all in being a True Witness;  John 3:28-30 & John 5:31 & John 7:18 & John 15:26 & John 16:13-14  Albeit, David Wilkerson did not always follow that teaching or line of discernment because he has at times testify to feeling the presence of the Holy Ghost in the worship place and had even pray for the Holy Spirit to be sent to that place.  It is no wonder for me why he says he cannot understand why phenomenon seekers were coming to his service, but I understand by His help, is because he was talking like  them in how they experience that which he says is not the Holy Spirit at all.  

At any rate, regardles
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From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostJan-24 7:57 AM 
To: Waite_0 (Waite_01)  (17 of 48) 
 40219.17 in reply to 40219.14 

bob>God wants ALL to come, calvinsim says only a very few can come.

Are you citing a direct quote or are you citing what you think they are saying?

bob>The punch line with calvinism is that they say only those predestined to be saved before they are born will/can be saved. Since most the world does not accept Christ, then most the world is not predestined to be saved. What other conclusion can be drawn from this? 

1 Timothy 2:Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

bob>Calvinism says only those few who are predestined to be saved before they are born will be saved and nothing they do in this life can ever change that. We see that the majority of the world is not Christian, so the majority of mankind IS NOT predestined to be saved per calvinism and they have no chance to ever be saved no matter what they do in this life, they were predestined to hell, per calvinism. It's a lie, it's confusing it lead people away from God instead of to Him and it says God does not want ALL TO COME, just opposite of the bible!

Until you provide a link citing that plainly, I still think you are giving a summary conclusion to a teaching point of Calvinism rather than a direct quote.  Granted, many say things hypocritical of what they meant and there are some that say things that oppose themselves.  As iron sharpen iron, one has to turn to scripture for proof of any teaching or reproof of false teaching. 

bob>>So, what does calvinism say then? 

Let's talk about predestination then.  It may not be as Calvin taught it, but let us discuss it as found in scripture.  Explain these verses in Romans.  Do they not show God control or predestination over man in disregards to this supposed free will?

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 
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From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostJan-24 7:59 AM 
To: Waite_0 (Waite_01)  (18 of 48) 
 40219.18 in reply to 40219.15 

bob>So, if you disagree with only one point of TULIP, it's all wrong!  Predestination is of a very few people to SERVE not to be saved...

My point is.. if you disagree with any point of Catholicism, does that mean everything that is Christianity is wrong as the world would think?  No.

bob>The core of calvinism is they say only those predestined to be saved will/can be saved and nothing anyone does in this life can ever change that predestination. TULIP is then established by calvin to try to show there is support for it, but it takes the grace/love of God to mean nothing and that prayer won't work, calviin is what saves, Christ is not needed

 


 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostJan-24 8:03 AM 
To: Waite_0 (Waite_01)  (19 of 48) 
 40219.19 in reply to 40219.16 

bob>Freewill is all thru the bible, I have it, the says "choose God" that means you have a freewill choice to make, you can go either way to choose or reject, it's our freewill call, right?

bob>Choose God does show we have a choice and that our freewill power to choose is so strong we can even reject God, just like Jonah did. I spent me life in a baptiest church growing up and one sunday morning I was "called" by the Holy Spirit to go down after the service, yet I too ran, the next couple of services were all the same, I ran again and then I got tired of running and I went down. I used my freewill to reject and then to finally accept. 


 

 

 
From: Caryn (haleyC987)Jan-24 9:46 AM 
To: Waite_0 (Waite_01)  (20 of 48) 
 40219.20 in reply to 40219.16 

God's will is known sovereign, far beyond human comprehension.

The human will is "want".  Want is the desire of your heart. The desire of heart is intent.  Intent reflects the initial attitude of heart "to do", and can be either intentionally good or intentionally not so good at any time. The ages old question still yet remains "to do or not to do" what-you-want.

People who love God usually want His will done in their lives and not their own will done.  Here's Jesus describing how all that can and will work out:

“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’

“And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went.

“The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go.

“Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of before you.  -Jesus Mat 21:28-3

 

 

 
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