Bob (Bobbylee7) said...
bob>They don't come out and say that, but that's the heart of what they believe. One is "chosen BEFORE they are born" and only the "chosen/elect" will be saved and nothing they do in this life can ever change their "election"
Again, kind of an oversimplification that distorts what they believe.
bob>I got that straight from 5 point preachers who taught us over about 3 months.
The path each of the Elect takes to salvation is, in their belief, foreordained.
bob>That's what they said, predestined to be saved.
But no human being knows for sure who is and who is not Elect.
bob>They would say from the pulpit, "I am certain everyone in this chruch is predestined to be saved"
Some who APPEAR to be Elect now, may fall away before the end and thus demonstrate that they were never "truly saved" to begin with.
bob>You said just what you disagree with. One can appear to be saved and yet are not. This is a take off on OSAS in the calvin form it's "some are predestined to be saved before they are born, nothing they do in this life can ever change that"
(Again, this is their understanding). Some who APPEAR to be reprobate and hopelessly lost right now, may turn and repent and be saved before the end. We cannot know who is and who is not "Elect" until the very end.
bob>Billy Graham saved? No way to know. Hitler saved? No way to know.
"Those who endure to the end" are the truly Elect.
bob>Or one can be saved on their death bed no matter what kind of life they had, except those who are predestined to be saved before they are born will be saved, nothing can stop that.
Only God knows who they are. No one who is truly Elect will ever fail to be eventually converted as foreordained, nor will they ever apostatize and lose faith. They will remain faithful.
bob>OSAS, however, some loose faith and come back, but that does not mean they were Predestined to be saved or not.
The "Once Saved Always Saved" thing where a person can get saved and then live however they want and still be saved is NOT what Calvin taught, and it is NOT what Calvinists teach. That is a bastardized version of Calvinism that most Calvinists would reject and condemn.
bob>OSAS has a different slant on it via calvinsim "once predestined to be saved Always saved"
They would say that while a truly regenerate Elect person can occasionally fall Into sin, even serious sin, he will not LIVE A LIFE of sin. He will repent of his sins and return to obedience.
bob>Confusing isn't it. He may repent in the last second of life and if he's predestined to be saved, he will be, if he's not, he won't be. Calvinist don't have to live in obedience, they are saved already.
Calvin saw the Spiritual Disciplines of Prayer, Bible reading, church attendance, etc, as a way to "show forth" or "make your election sure" (demonstrate you are truly Elect by continuing in faithfulness), and he saw those who lived sinfully habitually after a supposed conversion to have been "falsely converted".
bob>Or not. Calvinist are predestined to be saved, not predestined to be wonderful followers of Christ. Some of the wonderful followers of Christ are predestined to be saved and some are not, as you said, we don't know, we can't tell, so one's life doesn't mean anything.
He would have rejected the "OSAS" message of many Baptists because it doesn't include true repentance from sin and a truly changed life, which all truly regenerate people (the Elect) will necessarily show forth.
bob>Calvinism has a different slant on OSAS and one's life doesn't matter, if one is predestined to be saved before they are born they are saved, NOTHING they do in this life changes anything.
And again, he never presumed that anyone was necessarily Elect or unelect.
bob>Confused? it's all about being "Elect" before one is born to be saved.
That is why, historically, the Calvinists have been among the most active Evangelistic groups.