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Faith Issues,News & Religions -  Is Calvinism Correct? (1326 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
 
From: crusedudeSep-9 9:54 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (21 of 131) 
 40910.21 in reply to 40910.3 

>To me, a FORMER Calvinist, the weakest link in Calvinism is Limited Atonement, and the next weakest is Irresistible Grace. These two have the weakest arguments for them, the least Biblical support, and the most Biblical Evidence AGAINST them.

Why do you say this?  Scripture?  Can you fit it all together?  Can you deal with Romans 9, where Paul pulls together some of the major tenants of TULIP?  And, I wasn't in your so-called Calvinist Baptist Church, so I don't need to hear about it.  I have dealt with sorry excuses for Pastors in my own personal Church history.  I'm interested in what the Bible teaches, not your Church experience.

 

 
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From: Secundus555Sep-9 11:02 PM 
To: crusedude  (22 of 131) 
 40910.22 in reply to 40910.21 

It is me that said that, not Bob. He was quoting me. 

 

Secundus

 

 
From: crusedudeSep-10 7:06 AM 
To: Secundus555  (23 of 131) 
 40910.23 in reply to 40910.22 

 

>To me, a FORMER Calvinist, the weakest link in Calvinism is Limited Atonement, and the next weakest is Irresistible Grace. These two have the weakest arguments for them, the least Biblical support, and the most Biblical Evidence AGAINST them.

I see, ok, well then, support your thesis.  And understand, my life is in Christ, not Calvin.  I love Jesus and His words.  TULIP best explains the Bible's teaching.

I find no Biblical problems with Limited Atonement (effectiveness) or Irresistible Grace.  In short, I've never found anyone using the Bible to show TULIP wrong.  

 

 
From: Secundus555Sep-10 11:22 AM 
To: crusedude  (24 of 131) 
 40910.24 in reply to 40910.23 

crusedude said...

I see, ok, well then, support your thesis.  And understand, my life is in Christ, not Calvin.  I love Jesus and His words.  TULIP best explains the Bible's teaching.

I find no Biblical problems with Limited Atonement (effectiveness) or Irresistible Grace.  In short, I've never found anyone using the Bible to show TULIP wrong.  

Please understand that I was a full "5 Point Calvinist". I was trained under some of the leading Calvinist scholars in the world, including RC Sproul and Timothy George.

My commitment to Calvinism was passionate. But there were some arguments that never sat well with me. Particularly the way Calvinism, in order to maintain the belief in Limited Atonement, had to redefine what "all" and "the whole world" means in ways that were very forces and foreign to the text. 

 

Here are some passages of Scripture which clearly teach UNLIMITED Atonement, and which Calvinists have to artificially REINTERPRET the clear meaning of the text in order to maintain their belief in Limited Atonement. 

 

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16-17 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him."

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Romans 5:12-19 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.

Colossians 1:20 And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

 

Each of these, and many more, teach the universality of the Atonement of Christ. He came to die for ALL...the whole world. 

In order to get around the clear meaning of these passages, one must artificially REDEFINE "all" and "whole world" in very forces and inappropriate ways. 

I was never comfortable with that. It eventually bothered me so much I had to re-read the passages in their own context and decide whether I believed what it said, or what I had been taught to DO to those passages to MAKE them line up with what I had been taught. I found I couldn't do that anymore.

The Cross paid for ALL sins. The Incarnation redeemed ALL of humanity. Salvation is a free gift available to all. "Whosoever believes" will be saved. 

Limited Atonement is unscriptural. It is a forced and artificial way to read these Scriptures. 

Once I saw that, I ceased to believe in Limited Atonement. Once I ceased to believe in Limited Atonement, I ceased to be a Calvinist because ALL FIVE POINTS stand or fall together. They are all necessary to each of the others. If one Point falls, the whole system of Theology falls apart. All 5 are necessary to Calvinist belief. 

 

Secundus

 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostSep-10 3:10 PM 
To: Secundus555  (25 of 131) 
 40910.25 in reply to 40910.24 

bob>Excellent post Secundus !!!  You are a scholar and a gentleman, the apartment I lived in at college was named "Scholars" but they didn't have an entrance exam or I wouldn't of lived there, my room mate was a scholar, a guy from outside Chandler, Ok, who was taught in a one room school house. He was very smart and said he would learn what the older kids were learning as he was right there with them. I think he was the only one in his class and yet he was in all the classes. So, I determined my school had too many rooms or I'd of been smart too! Haha

 


 

 

 
From: Secundus555Sep-10 6:28 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (26 of 131) 
 40910.26 in reply to 40910.25 

Thanks. I could do the same with all 5 points if necessary.

The strongest "Point" in Calvinism is Total Depravity. They believe that this point demands all of the others, but they are wrong. 

God's Prevenient Grace gives everyone "a measure of faith", enabling us to choose to respond to his Grace or to reject it. 

God is Love. Love always gives a choice. Love never imposes itself on anyone. 

If sin makes us incapable of responding to God (Total Depravity), Love RESTORES our moral ability, granting us the capacity, by his grace, to respond to his Justifying Grace. 

Thus, even the faith by which we are saved is a gift of God. 

God doesn't want automatons that he programs to love him. Those that love because they are MADE to love God, love out of necessity rather than by choice. 

God wants children who love him freely and by their own choosing. He grants us the ability to choose, but Love always offers a choice.

Because our very ability to believe comes from God, we cannot count our faith as meritorious. 

Yet we are responsible to cooperate with his Prevenient Grace and exercise our Free Will by placing our faith in Christ and repenting of our sins to receive his Justifying Grace.

So also, after we receive his Justifying Grace, we must cooperate with his grace and exercise our Free Will to receive his Sanctifying Grace.

If we continue in our faith and cooperate with his Sanctifying Grace, enduring in faithfulness to the end, we will receive his GLORIFYING GRACE. 

God alone knows who will endure to the end, and those who continue in their faith to the end, God foreknew, and they are his Elect.

God's Election is everywhere in Scripture tied to his FOREKNOWLEDGE of who would respond to his Grace and endure in faith to the end. This is Conditional Election. 

It is indeed possible (though not easy) for a truly and genuinely regenerate (born again) person to walk away from his salvation and apostatize. Scripture everywhere qualifies that enduring to the end is a choice, and that not everyone will. 

Hebrews 6 makes it abundantly clear that it is indeed possible for one who has "once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come" to fall away from their faith and be lost forever. But this is possible only by deliberate and conscious choice to abandon faith and walk away from their salvation.

Those who think that you lose your salvation everytime you sin or "backslide" have misunderstood salvation by Grace through Faith alone. That is the unhealthy extreme of Arminianism. 

I can provide in-depth scriptural analysis for each of these points if necessary. 

The key to all of this is: God is Love. Love is self-sacrificing and unconditional. Love always offers a choice. Love NEVER imposes itself on anyone. Love loves even when 5he other person doesn't love you back. Love never gives up. Love always hopes and always believes. Love never EVER gives up. But love doesn't demand it's own way, either. Love offers a choice and respects that choice. Love doesn't stop loving when the other person refuses to love them back. 

God is Love. 

Calvinism is inconsistent with love because God imposes himself on the Elect, causing them to choose him. 

That is as contrary to Love as Universalism. Neither of which gives a choice. Love ALWAYS gives a choice. 

 

Secundus

 

 
From: Secundus555Sep-10 8:01 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (27 of 131) 
 40910.27 in reply to 40910.20 

Bob (Bobbylee7) said...

bob> I spend most my life in SBC and never heard of this before. I contacted the SBC and asked them about it, they said it was not SBC teaching, but some churches started to accept it and are known as "reformed baptists" the calvin SBC church I attended was calvinist in secret as they had ony leaders that went to in in the last 20 years, but it was not preached to the members in a direct manner. The leaders had discussed taking the church presbyterian, but knew the members would leave, so they didn't. Once it was revealed, half the church left immediately and it's been falling ever since. I also knew people who were presbyterian and didn't know about calvainism. 

Modern Baptists are usually not familiar with Calvinism. Throughout much of the 20th Century, Southern Baptists moved away from the full Calvinism of their roots. Most of them only held onto one "Point" of Calvinism, Perseverance of the Saints, the "P" of the TULIP accrostic. 

This led to a distorted version of Calvinism, the "Once Saved Always Saved" cheap Gospel where a person can "walk the aisle" and "go forward" during an Altar Call, "get saved" and baptized, but then quickly return to the same selfish, self-centered sinful lifestyle you lived before all if that, and still think you are "Saved". 

The form of Calvinism you were taught in your church was a distorted form of Calvinism, not the Classical Calvinism. 

Calvinism does NOT teach that you can be saved and live however you want because there is nothing you can do to change your Election. Your church may have taught that, but that is NOT a good representation of traditional Calvinist beliefs. 

Rather, they teach that the Elect WILL be faithful and obedient followers of Christ. They may occasionally fall into sin, but in general, the Elect will be faithful. Their Election is manifested in their faithfulness. If they are unfaithful, then they show themselves to NOT be of the Elect. If they live sinful lives, that proves that they are NOT among the Elect. Unless of course they repent and finally become faithful and obedient. 

That is TRUE Calvinism. The kind of Calvinism you are describing is a watered down, distorted version of what Calvin taught and what "Classical Calvinists" believe. 

I am obviously not a Calvinist or an apologist for Calvinism, but I can tell you that what you are describing as Calvinism is NOT what Calvinism is. I was trained by some of THE most prominent Calvinist scholars in the world. And what you are describing is NOT what they teach or believe.

 

Secundus

 

  • Edited September 10, 2020 8:58 pm  by  Secundus555
 

 
From: crusedudeSep-10 11:26 PM 
To: Secundus555  (28 of 131) 
 40910.28 in reply to 40910.24 

Thank you for the honest response.  However, now I need to respond.

 

Limited Atonement:  while Christ did die for the world, the effectiveness of the atonement will only be for the elect.  Thus, we can view it as limited Atonement. Biblical support comes from;

Jn. 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day

2 Tim. 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentlenessGod may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth

So, whoever believes will be saved, those who will believe will only be the ones drawn, the elect.

 

The most complete teaching on this that summarizes election and God's complete sovereignty in soteriology is Ro. 9:10-23

10 And not only sobut also when Rebekah had conceived children by one manour forefather Isaac,11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or badin order that God’s purpose of election might continuenot because of works but because of him who calls12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”13 As it is written, “Jacob I lovedbut Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say thenIs there injustice on God’s partBy no means!15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercyand I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”16 So then it depends not on human will or exertionbut on Godwho has mercy.17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you upthat I might show my power in youand that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”18 So then he has mercy on whomever he willsand he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find faultFor who can resist his will?”20 But who are youO manto answer back to GodWill what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”21 Has the potter no right over the clayto make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use
...[Message truncated]

 

 
From: Secundus555Sep-10 11:51 PM 
To: crusedude  (29 of 131) 
 40910.29 in reply to 40910.28 

crusedude said...

Therefore; try as you did, and it was a good effort, you didn’t convince me.

I have presented the Scriptures which clearly indicate that Christ died for the sins of ALL PEOPLE.

You have not refuted what these Scriptures teach. 

You cannot invalidate one set of Scriptures by citing others. 

You must take what ALL of the Scripture, not just Romans 9 have to say on the matter. 

Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. You must take ALL of what it says. 

Calvinist is very selective in the verses it takes at face value and the verses it MANGLES to mean something other than what they actually SAY. 

It is this mangling of the Scripture to make "all" mean something other than ALL, and "whole world" mean something other than THE WHOLE world that initially began my journey away from Calvinism. 

 

 

Secundus

 

 
From: crusedudeSep-11 9:09 AM 
To: Secundus555  (30 of 131) 
 40910.30 in reply to 40910.29 

Right back at YOU, 

You have not refuted what these Scriptures teach. 

You cannot invalidate one set of Scriptures by citing others. 

You must take what ALL of the Scripture 

Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. You must take ALL of what it says. 

 

You have divided and pitted scripture against Scripture and causing contradiction.

REMEMBER this

Paul wrote 

1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Romans 5:12-19 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one-man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.

Colossians 1:20 And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

 

AND PAUL WROTE ROMANS 9 Which gives clear teaching of what we are to think of God's vs. man's part in soteriology.

 

Paul isn't divided.  You make a division and YOU divide Scripture and You cause Scripture to contradict Scripture.   

Once Again;

 

Limited Atonement/Effectiveness:  while Christ did die for the world, the effectiveness of the atonement will only be for the elect.  Thus, we can view it as limited Atonement/Effectiveness. Biblical support comes from;

Jn. 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day

2 Tim. 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth

So, whoever believes will be saved, those who will believe will only be the ones drawn, the elect.

 

TULIP, my man, TULIP

 

Crusedude

 

 

 

 

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