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Faith Issues,News & Religions -  Is Calvinism Correct? (1328 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
 
From: Secundus555Sep-14 6:21 PM 
To: Caryn (haleyC987)  (51 of 131) 
 40910.51 in reply to 40910.50 

This is absolutely correct. 

Many Atheists inherit the All-or-nothing, black and white thinking from their Fundamentalist roots. 

Also, they tend to paint ALL of Christianity as if it were Fundamentalist, although in reality, Fundamentalism only makes up less than 20% of world Christianity.

They seem to believe that the Arguments that easily debunk a hyperliteral interpretation of Genesis somehow applies to ALL of Christianity...even though the majority of Christianity both today and throughout our 2,000 yr history have interpreted Genesis largely Allegorically.

They try to force ALL of Christianity into the Fundamentalist mold because they have easy, scripted arguments against Fundamentalism. They have NO Arguments Against the more nuanced and less Literalist approach of MOST of Christianity. It is intellectual laziness on their part that they don't even TRY to debate mainstream Christianity.  

Yes, they have a LOT in common with Fundamentalists. Same mentality, often the same Evangelistic zeal for their message, too.

It is so funny to watch them try to cope with debating me when NONE of their classic arguments apply to me or work on me. Usually, they act like I'M the exception, the oddball, the minority, when most of my views are actually the MAINSTREAM and HISTORIC Christian view dating back 2,000 yrs. 

 

Secundus

 

  • Edited September 14, 2020 8:41 pm  by  Secundus555
 
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From: crusedudeSep-14 7:12 PM 
To: Caryn (haleyC987)  (52 of 131) 
 40910.52 in reply to 40910.46 

I have explained in previous posts.  I've said my peace.

 

 
From: crusedudeSep-14 7:45 PM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (53 of 131) 
 40910.53 in reply to 40910.48 

Nonsense, Paul wrote Romans to the church.  Read the introduction.  

Jn. 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws himAnd I will raise him up on the last day.

 

 
From: crusedudeSep-15 9:24 AM 
To: Secundus555  (54 of 131) 
 40910.54 in reply to 40910.49 

>The REAL reason Calvinism is wrong us that it is Unbiblical and it was completely ABSENT from Christian beliefs for 1,500 yrs. 

Really???  completely absent???   Maybe absent in Name or the TULIP acronym, But the BASIS for it was already espoused by some well before 1500 years.

1. The operative basis of 5-point Calvinism is the inability of man to come to Christ and be saved apart from being drawn Jn. 6:44. viz. men are chosen by God's sovereign will as the elect.

2. Consider Augustine 354-430 AD Now, I am not saying that I agree with Augustine on many things, that's not the point.  Augustine went back and forth on free will in soteriology.  But Look at #3. 

3. "However, after 412 Augustine exchanged the traditional Christian defense of divine foreknowledge of human free will choices to explain predestination for a more Stoic and Gnostic/Manichaean view of deterministic predestination wherein the will was not free except to sin."   Wilson, Ken 2018 p. 286-298 Augustine's Conversion from Traditional Free Choice to Non-free Free Will     Wilson. Ken 2019 p. 5-18, 55-80, 120 The Foundation of Augustinian Calvinism.

4. So, some of the basis for Calvinism was laid, as early as, 412 AD.  That's the point.  Some Calvinistic type belief was in Christianity well before 1500 years, and was not completely absent.

5. As far as your claim that TULIP is unbiblical is concerned, I have previously spelled out my Theological support for TULIP, using different Scriptures.  You can accept or reject them.  You can refer back to my earlier posts to review them, if you wish.

 

6. But understand this, My final authority for accepting TULIP is the Bible, not Church Fathers, etc.

 

 

 
From: Caryn (haleyC987)Sep-15 9:31 AM 
To: crusedude  (55 of 131) 
 40910.55 in reply to 40910.52 

crusedude said...

I have explained in previous posts.  I've said my peace.

Secundus explained what I was mostly curious about, but thanks for your time with previous posts.

Peace and Blessings.

 

 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostSep-15 10:52 AM 
To: Secundus555  (56 of 131) 
 40910.56 in reply to 40910.49 

Bob (Bobbylee7) said...

bob>It is salvational

No. It is not. Our Salvation does not hinge on what we believe about Predestination. 

bob>I have heard a 5 point preacher say if one didn't believe in calvinism they won't be saved, I asked our church paster, who brought him in to preach, if he thought that, he said he did not, I asked why he didn't correct him as he said it in front of the chruch, he said he didn't want to get into a debate during a sermon, but he also never corrected it in his following sermons. The point I am making about calvinism being a salvational issue is that for those who believe it, then they believe their salvation was predestined before they were born and nothing they do in this life can ever change that, so why not eat, drink and be merry/sinful, their saved or not saved already anyway. It is salvational. 

Bob (Bobbylee7) said...

life long calvinists get sick of it and God and turn from God in the process. Mark Twain is a good example. At the end, he completely turned away from God and spoke harshly about Him, thinking calvinism was what the bible taught and his quotes about God showed he became an atheist. So, it was salvational as in rejecting calvinsim he had to reject God. 

The same can be said for belief in Biblical Inerrancy and Literalism.

bob>The difference in this is that calvinism does not show the love and grace of God, it shows a strict, harsh God, which is easy to reject. 

Fundamentalism has created more Atheists than Calvinism ever did. (For this example, YOU would be considered Fundamentalist as well).  Are you going to tell me that you think it is dangerous and "salvational" to believe the Bible is 100% inerrant and should be taken literally, especially regarding Creationism? 

bob>Fundamentalism/bible isn't taught correctly, it's all over the place. Some religions/like calvinism teachings are so harsh and confusing one can't find God in them, which leaves it's members empty, easy to leave. If/when God is presented correctly, God is present and loving/caring, easy to find out about how great God is. 

Talk to 100 Atheists and 90+ will be from a Fundamentalist background. Fundamentalism creates more Atheists than Liberalism even. Because it is an ALL-OR-NOTHING belief system. If any single thing of a Literal Interpretation of the Bible can be demonstrated to be false, or if the slightest doubt enters the mind, the whole faith shatters. It is a very Brittle kind of faith that leads many to assume that if any little thing they were taught isn't true, the WHOLE THING isn't true.

bob>I agree that was true back in the day as America went to church back then, no so today. Science is presented as godless and when one has no church understanding of God, then they go with what they know. 

Would you call THAT a "Salvational issue"? It fits the bill far better than Calvinism does.

bob>The presentation of God via various religions and science and education leads many today to reject God and the bible. They don't think there is eternal life so salvation is not an issue. 

No one is saved or condemned because of what they believe regarding Predestination.

bob>That is exactly what calvinism teaches to it's members and that's the problem, if one's predestined to be saved or not, why seek God or to do Gods will, or go to church ect. 

And those who DO believe in it are every bit as much saved as you and me. 

bob>They believed they are saved "by it" who needs Chist to be saved, calvinism has saved them or not before they are born. 

It CAN be taken to an unhealthy extreme, and THAT IS harmful. But in general, Calvinists are good, godly people. I just happen to believe that their belief in Calvinist views of Election and Predestination are mistaken. 

bob>The calvinists I know are "kind of calvinists" they attended the Southern Baptists church I was speaking about and they are still confused and the church is going no where but down. 

I don't see it being taught by ANYONE prior to John Calvin. Not even St Augustine of Hippo would have agreed with many of Calvin's teachings. 

bob>It's my understanding another presented this theory and calvin took it over. It started during his time. 

Bob (Bobbylee7) said...

bob>If you talk to those who are calvinist and actually know enough about it to make decisions on it, they will vary on how many points they accept, it's very hard to find a 5 pointer. I have spoken to presbyterians who didn't even know what calvainsm is. 

Laypeople are often uninformed about the Bible and about Theology. 

...[Message truncated]


 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostSep-15 10:55 AM 
To: Caryn (haleyC987)  (57 of 131) 
 40910.57 in reply to 40910.55 

Secundus explained what I was mostly curious about, but thanks for your time with previous posts.

Peace and Blessings.

bob>You're a sweetheart! I'm trying to move in your direction, thanks. 


 

 

 
From: Secundus555Sep-15 11:40 AM 
To: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon  (58 of 131) 
 40910.58 in reply to 40910.56 

Bob (Bobbylee7) said...

The point I am making about calvinism being a salvational issue is that for those who believe it, then they believe their salvation was predestined before they were born and nothing they do in this life can ever change that, so why not eat, drink and be merry/sinful, their saved or not saved already anyway. It is salvational

The point I am making is that THIS IS NOT WHAT CALVINISM IS!

That is a DISTORTED VERSION of Calvinism. I understand that this is the form of Calvinism you were exposed to, but it is NOT what Calvin taught, nor what properly trained Calvinists today believe.

Please understand this. Your experience with Calvinism and your understanding of Calvinism is NOT typical of Calvinists historically. It is a perversion of Calvin's teachings. And it WAS DEFINITELY NOT what I was taught when I was a Calvinist. 

Traditional Calvinism REJECTS the idea that a person is predestined to get saved and so they can live however they want because it doesn't matter. Traditional Calvinism teaches that such a person who does that is merely FOOLING themselves that they are among the Elect. They believe that anyone who is TRULY Elect will SHOW FORTH the fruits of Salvation, namely, they will have a changed life and changed behavior and they will demonstrate their Election by their good works. The idea that a person can "eat, drink and be merry/sinful" because you are saved and nothing can change that would be ABHORRENT to traditional Calvinists. 

You are not presenting a fair or accurate view of Calvinism because your experieces were with a Toxic distorted version of it. You should understand that it is UNFAIR to characterize a whole belief system based on its most toxic extremes. 

There are indeed toxic extremes like what you experieced, but they are not representative of the whole or even of MAINSTREAM Calvinism. 

I studied under some of the leading Calvinist scholars in the world. I studied Calvin's own writings. I studied his Theology in a systematic manner. What you are describing IS SIMPLY NOT properly called Calvinism. It is like someone who learned Calvinism in a very toxic environment, or who distorted it because of their own toxic psyche. 

It bears NO resemblance to traditional Calvinism as it was taught by calvin himself or as it is believed by most Calvinists.

 

Do you get that?

Bob (Bobbylee7) said...

No one is saved or condemned because of what they believe regarding Predestination.

bob>That is exactly what calvinism teaches to it's members and that's the problem, if one's predestined to be saved or not, why seek God or to do Gods will, or go to church ect. 

No, that is WHAT THAT ONE PREACHER taught. I've never heard ANY Calvinist teach that, and I went to school with HUNDREDS of them. I've been around far more Calvinist than you ever have and I can tell you that NONE of them believe that. Not a single one. 

You need to accept the fact that your experieces with Calvinism is NOT TYPICAL, but an extreme perversion of the doctrine and that it is UNFAIR to judge the entire belief system by their example. 

I don't want to be cast in the role of an apologist for Calvinism, because I do NOT believe in it. But it serves no good purpose to allow a gross mischaracterization to be presented as if it were representative of all or even most of Calvinism. 

A person in a weak position prefers to argue against the worst versions of their opponent's ideas. A person in a strong position, with Truth on their side will argue against the BEST and most accurate versions of their opponent's ideas.

 

I will not slander Calvinists in order to discredit them. I will take their CLASSICAL and TRADITIONAL beliefs, and an accurate representation of those beliefs, and I will demonstrate how they are not correct from both a Scriptural and an Historical perspective. 

 

 

Secundus

  • Edited September 15, 2020 12:08 pm  by  Secundus555
 

 
From: Caryn (haleyC987)Sep-15 11:41 AM 
To: crusedude  (59 of 131) 
 40910.59 in reply to 40910.53 

crusedude said...

Jn. 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

If interested, what you are hearing is Jewish prophesy in state of being and unfolding simultaneously at-the-time, as spoken specifically to all Jews at-that-time, for prophetic Judaism isn't known to pass by as if all-finished but lives everlasting to us in the eternal word where upholding the foundation of the Christian faith, for God's word including prophesy accomplished lives on eternally now and moves same eternally forward moment by moment as we can understand earth-time.

6:45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor (everyone) and each man his brother (within Jewish national faith), saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”  Jer 31:33-34 ... (Heb 8, 10), etc.

Here is how we know this day "all" (Jew and Gentile alike) to-date who "listen" to Jesus' teachings and sayings in the Bible are being still yet being taught by God in Christ, where thereby whosoever is drawn to Jesus speaking, and at that by the multitudes, just as then and now.

“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.  -Jesus in Jhn 14:10-11 ...

It's just the way it is and always has been.
 

Jn. 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
 

The "no one" part you're drawn to are simply people not believing God to begin with, since the beginning and where marked at Sinai (Ten Commandments - the Moral Law of God).  And where partly of what mostly angering Jesus about the Pharisee rule of the faith at the time is seen here:

And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? -Jesus, Mat 15

BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”  - Mat 15:9  (Isa 29, etc)

Apparently at the time, the ruling Pharisee sect of Jews had ended up teaching more from Talmud (rabbinic rules, ideas, opinions) and teaching less from Torah (God's word).

...just sayin'. 

 

  • Edited September 15, 2020 12:11 pm  by  Caryn (haleyC987)
 

 
From: crusedudeSep-15 8:16 PM 
To: Caryn (haleyC987)  (60 of 131) 
 40910.60 in reply to 40910.59 

Nice philosophizing again, BUT Still, No One can come to Christ unless they are drawn,

because they are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.  Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13

Bible Just Sayin'

 

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