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Faith Issues,News & Religions -  Is Calvinism Correct? (1329 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
 
From: Caryn (haleyC987)Sep-16 2:17 PM 
To: crusedude  (61 of 131) 
 40910.61 in reply to 40910.60 

:)

 

crusedude said...

BUT Still, No One can come to Christ unless they are drawn,

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,"  Eph 2:1

And the you without a clue, at the time.  Otherwise, what need for the great commission.

"Teaching them to observe all I have commanded you" -Jesus, Mat 28:20

How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”  Rom 10:15 (Isa 52:7)

However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” Rom 10:16

“Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. -Jesus, Jhn 3:11


No one has always been anciently known "everyone" already knowing about God or already hearing about God and already-not-believing-Him. Not about regular every day people who have not heard a word about God nor understood a thing about God, for God is known for His longsuffering, merciful lovingkindness what with no partiality with God between peoples, since the beginning. ( Gen, Lev 19, Deu 16, Luke 20:21, Acts 10:34, etc

For there is no partiality with God. Rom 2:11

But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. Jas 2:9

To show partiality is not good,
Because for a piece of bread a man will transgress.
Pro 28:21

 

The Jewish faith has always been anciently known a universal faith where all peoples to be welcomed for a time and through proselytizing toward schooling and conversion, and where Jews then observing strict religious social laws about Gentiles (strangers) wanting to hang out (sojourn) with them for a time. (Lev 19:18)

And where Jesus not at all happy with the Pharisee rule all about that, at the time ...

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. -Jesus, Mat 23:15

crusedude said...

they are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.  Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13
Bible Just Sayin'

Where you presume much.  Psa 19:13
 

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.  Rom 6:20 (Jhn 8:34)

All while at that free-to-righteousness where multitudes without a clue, and why sin is called blind, for mostly people cannot see their own sin, just the other guy's.  -Jesus, Mat 7:5

And why Jesus is so adamant about careful words we choose including teaching and/or testifying about the faith, so that we not perhaps cause others discouragement where there is hope of God, nor cause fear where there is trust of God, nor cause doubt where there is already faith in God, nor inadvertently cause harm to souls of those weaker in faith than ourselves by our words, for He tells us, ...

“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.

“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” -Jesus, Mat 12:36

 
Including why in and of all things, Jesus warns us, ...
 

“The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness.

“Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.  -Jesus, Luke 11

What with self-pride called the blind root of sin. There is nothing known more presumptuous than pride itself, for it just doesn't get any darker than that.

Also keep back Your servant from presumptuous sins;
Let them not rule over me;
Then I will be blameless,
And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.  Psa 19:13

+

 

  • Edited September 16, 2020 2:21 pm  by  Caryn (haleyC987)
 

 
From: crusedudeSep-16 10:04 PM 
To: Caryn (haleyC987)  (62 of 131) 
 40910.62 in reply to 40910.61 

1. First of all, I have said that I believe in The Great Commission of Mt. 28:20.  We are told to do it and need no other reason to follow this command.      I Evangelize because Christ said to do so.  That is reason enough.

2. Something needs to be understood about Jn. 6:44  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws himAnd I will raise him up on the last day 

     a. The original Greek in this verse for can is dunamai.  We get our word dynamite from this word. It's a verb primarily meaning I have power/I am able. 

     b. Therefore; the reason that no can come to Christ unless they are drawn isn't a matter of not having permission to do so.  It's a matter of not being able to come           to Christ.  That's because unsaved people are spiritually dead as taught in Eph. 2:1, Col 2:13.

3. As to your comment> No one has always been anciently known "everyone" already knowing about God or already hearing about God and already-not-believing-Him. Not about regular every day people who have not heard a word about God nor understood a thing about God, for God is known for His longsuffering, merciful lovingkindness what with no partiality with God between peoples, since the beginning. ( Gen, Lev 19, Deu 16, Luke 20:21, Acts 10:34, etc I don't accept this. So, what if they heard and didn't believe God.  Many hear and don't believe.  That changes nothing.  Whether they hear it once or 100 times, until God draws them, they won't come to Christ.  Read #2 above.

4. I hope this clears things up for you.

 
 Reply   Options 

 
From: Caryn (haleyC987)Sep-17 10:18 AM 
To: crusedude  (63 of 131) 
 40910.63 in reply to 40910.62 

crusedude said...

4. I hope this clears things up for you.

:)  Not yet.  But thanks for hanging in there. :)

 

crusedude said...

3. As to your comment> No one has always been anciently known "everyone" already knowing about God or already hearing about God and already-not-believing-Him. Not about regular every day people who have not heard a word about God nor understood a thing about God, for God is known for His longsuffering, merciful lovingkindness what with no partiality with God between peoples, since the beginning. ( Gen, Lev 19, Deu 16, Luke 20:21, Acts 10:34, etc.

  I don't accept this. So, what if they heard and didn't believe God.  Many hear and don't believe.  That changes nothing.  Whether they hear it once or 100 times, until God draws them, they won't come to Christ.  Read #2 above.

 

You're saying you don't accept Jesus speaking and teaching the true meaning and basis of the Law and the Prophets to already Jews, to begin with?  Jews were supposed to be sharing their knowledge of God with all peoples, it's just that the Pharisee sect of Jews at the time couldn't see the orchard through the sin. That is to say, they were overlooking the good to see the evil.

 ~Everything~ to and about God's word is founded on the Law of Moses (added secondarily to the first universal law (Ten Commandments) and the Prophets for all peoples in the world then and now.  That is to say all what you're not accepting about Jesus' teachings and sayings (He commanded to say by His Father according to Jesus) is where I'm of those who have not been given the luxury of believing what I want to.

Maybe you're not understanding that Jesus, the Christ, does not change God?

crusedude said...

b. Therefore; the reason that no can come to Christ unless they are drawn isn't a matter of not having permission to do so.  It's a matter of not being able to come           to Christ.  That's because unsaved people are spiritually dead as taught in Eph. 2:1, Col 2:13.

 

Okay, if we're stuck on human inability to come to Jesus, ...

Acording to Jesus, here is His "universal" call by God and thereby enabling the draw of the call to all peoples:

From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”  Mat 4:17

Repentance, of which had already been so since the beginning, and sincerely (free willingly) in sackcloth and ashes, where atonement with God not without sacrifice.

+

 

 

 
From: Bob (Bobbylee7) DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by hostSep-17 10:18 AM 
To: Secundus555  (64 of 131) 
 40910.64 in reply to 40910.58 

Bob (Bobbylee7) said...

The point I am making about calvinism being a salvational issue is that for those who believe it, then they believe their salvation was predestined before they were born and nothing they do in this life can ever change that, so why not eat, drink and be merry/sinful, their saved or not saved already anyway. It is salvational

The point I am making is that THIS IS NOT WHAT CALVINISM IS!

That is a DISTORTED VERSION of Calvinism. I understand that this is the form of Calvinism you were exposed to, but it is NOT what Calvin taught, nor what properly trained Calvinists today believe.

bob>Calvinism is harsh! I was having dinner with a 5 pointer who said every second of everyone's life is predestined before they are born. Every second. I held up a napkin and asked, did God predestine me to drop this napkin or set it down, he said drop, so I set it down. It's harsh, it gets more harsh the more points one is, it takes away the grace and love of God and the bible does not say anything like this. 

Please understand this. Your experience with Calvinism and your understanding of Calvinism is NOT typical of Calvinists historically. It is a perversion of Calvin's teachings. And it WAS DEFINITELY NOT what I was taught when I was a Calvinist. 

Traditional Calvinism REJECTS the idea that a person is predestined to get saved and so they can live however they want because it doesn't matter. Traditional Calvinism teaches that such a person who does that is merely FOOLING themselves that they are among the Elect. They believe that anyone who is TRULY Elect will SHOW FORTH the fruits of Salvation, namely, they will have a changed life and changed behavior and they will demonstrate their Election by their good works. The idea that a person can "eat, drink and be merry/sinful" because you are saved and nothing can change that would be ABHORRENT to traditional Calvinists. 

bob>It's said there is no way to know who is and who is not predestined to be saved before they are born, so assuming those who live good lives must be predestined is a cop out. I don't know about you, but I know pastors who turned from Christ and became Jews or atheists and some came back some didn't. It's confusing. 

bob>Also, we are dealing with being predestined to be saved before one is born, do you agree. Using your view that those who live good Godly lives must be predestined to be correct also means those who live evil lives must not be predestined to be saved, so no need for them to seek God, no hope for them, nothing can be done to change one's predestined fate to be saved or not before they are born.  

You are not presenting a fair or accurate view of Calvinism because your experieces were with a Toxic distorted version of it. You should understand that it is UNFAIR to characterize a whole belief system based on its most toxic extremes.

bob>I can see your point, My pastor was a 5 pointer, even other 5 pointers were scared by him.  

There are indeed toxic extremes like what you experieced, but they are not representative of the whole or even of MAINSTREAM Calvinism. 

I studied under some of the leading Calvinist scholars in the world. I studied Calvin's own writings. I studied his Theology in a systematic manner. What you are describing IS SIMPLY NOT properly called Calvinism. It is like someone who learned Calvinism in a very toxic environment, or who distorted it because of their own toxic psyche. 

It bears NO resemblance to traditional Calvinism as it was taught by calvin himself or as it is believed by most Calvinists.

bob>Doesn't it still comeback to this issue, one is predestined to be saved before they are born?

Bob (Bobbylee7) said...

No one is saved or condemned because of what they believe regarding Predestination.

bob>That is exactly what calvinism teaches to it's members and that's the problem, if one's predestined to be saved or not, why seek God or to do Gods will, or go to church ect. 

No, that is WHAT THAT ONE PREACHER taught.

bob>I misread your statement, you were saying one's salvation is not determined by what one believes about Calvinism. I agree with that, the one preacher who said that in his sermon was wrong even according to my 5 point pastor 

I've never heard ANY Calvinist teach that, and I went to school with HUNDREDS of them. I've been around far more Calvinist than you ever have and I can tell you that NONE of them believe that. Not a single one. 

bob>Well, we do have the one that preached t
...[Message truncated]


 

 

 
From: crusedudeSep-18 6:02 AM 
To: Caryn (haleyC987)  (65 of 131) 
 40910.65 in reply to 40910.63 

>Maybe you're not understanding that Jesus, the Christ, does not change God?

1. God does not change Mal. 3:6

2. God has changed His Covenants for us.  Lk. 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eatensaying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

3. To use the vernacular, God doesn't change, He does change His "program" for us.

 

>According to Jesus, here is His "universal" call by God and thereby enabling the draw of the call to all peoples:

From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repentfor the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”  Mat 4:17

4. This is sometimes referred to as the general calling.  However, Christ still said in Mt. 22:14 For many are calledbut few are chosen.  So, here we also see support for God's sovereign choosing/election.

5. God's election is also evident in the OT. Consider Jacob and Esau mentioned in Ro. 9:11-15 

11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
  This quotes Gen. 25:23, Mal. 1:2-3, Ex. 33:19
 

6. I hope this helps answer your questions.

 

 

 

 
From: Caryn (haleyC987)Sep-18 12:35 PM 
To: crusedude  (66 of 131) 
 40910.66 in reply to 40910.65 

crusedude said...

6. I hope this helps answer your questions.

 

Sorta.  :)

It's just that ...

crusedude said...

15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”  This quotes Gen. 25:23, Mal. 1:2-3, Ex. 33:19

Romans 9:15   For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”

... is whosoever since sons of Noah, being gentile, repopulating the earth toward establishing all nations.

:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

And just as God saying, ...

“Incline your ear and come to Me.
Listen, that you may live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
According to the faithful mercies shown to David.  Isa 55:3

Does it sound to you like God is "making people listen", or is it more at a universally calling to Him showing the way toward living and He promising an everlasting covenant according to "His" faithful mercies shown to David.

And David could be pretty awful all while loving God, even plotting to have his best friend killed in battle so he could take off with his buddy's wife!  Showing God is faithful to us even when we are not.   And not only that, ...

“I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here am I, here am I,
To a nation which did not call on My name. 
Isa 65

And not to mention God doing just exactly what He pleases regardless of how or what we mere humans can end up presuming whatever about that. 

We could go and on and on about all this though to apparently no firm avail whatsoever one way or the other anyway, and I'm already 3 days behind my work and rarely go further than that, even though 3 days late is still current to me.  :)

However, what I can partially see is that people who are members of whatever churches are Calvinist can be convinced they are surely drawn there. What I cannot see is how anyone else can surely know they're drawn there enough, simply because,  

It appears Calvin aligns his theosophy more sided with the Jewish House (school) of Shammai but laced with modern paganism, where Jesus' teachings and sayings align more with the Jewish House of Hillel both living during Jesus' time on earth.  Jesus' teachings and sayings are seen uniting the differing views between Hillel and Shammai bringing the Jews together by reconciling the many disputations between them for those who would listen and thereby wholly opening of the faith universally toward all peoples.  Even so though, there is a !huge! difference between "hearing" and "listening", and where those listening more few and far between comparably, what with mostly everybody hearing what they want to believe.

I might think about the T part of your tulip a bit more, maybe, as I pretty much inadvertently exhausted that notion in a clinical case study, and in the world according to Calvin the T appears to be the leading procession of man's state of being, all while God making man after His own image and likeness where God Himself has never been known depraved, not to mention Totally depraved, ...

that is to say, I'm not so sure we mere humans can even perceive what "total" depravity may be like other than pondering that of satan's himself exemplary, of which is highly not advised and would be as foolish as it gets, for all that detail inquiry about evil toward one getting to even a beginning thought of forming an opinion involves much much more than simply observing the devil's dance, but waltzing-with-him.  Not good form.

But many thanks for all your time, and may God dearly Bless you and your loved ones.

+

 

  • Edited September 18, 2020 12:46 pm  by  Caryn (haleyC987)
 

 
From: crusedudeSep-19 8:45 AM 
To: Caryn (haleyC987)  (67 of 131) 
 40910.67 in reply to 40910.66 

Thank you for your time as well.

Honestly, though, much of what you said is speculation and assumption.

I am more theological, taking the axioms of the Bible and seeing how they fit together, as well as, believing the end result.  An established Calvinist once said that TULIP can't be defeated Biblically.  After being on this thread, I believe that also.  I am more in agreement with TULIP, than when I first started posting here.

I will summarily answer your objections to TULIP;

“I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here am I, here am I,
To a nation which did not call on My name. 
 Isa 65

All this shows is God reaching out to those who didn't seek Him.  This aligns with Total Depravity; they weren’t seeking God.  God made the choice to allow Himself to be sought by those who did not seek Him.  God made the decision to choose/elect them. If God had not made the choice to allow them to find Him, they would not have found Him.  God made the first move.  And the teaching in Jn. 6:44 fits in here as well.  They weren’t going to find God on their own; God had to call out to them; they did nothing to deserve God calling them; they didn't seek God; this aligns with Unconditional Election.  God made a choice/election in spite of the fact that they didn't seek Him.  This verse is full of support for parts of TULIP.

 

>It appears Calvin aligns his theosophy more sided with the Jewish House (school) of Shammai but laced with modern paganism, where Jesus' teachings and sayings align more with the Jewish House of Hillel both living during Jesus' time on earth. 

I agree with TULIP because it agrees with the Bible, not whether people think it aligns with House of Shammai or modern paganism.

 

>Jesus' teachings and sayings are seen uniting the differing views between Hillel and Shammai bringing the Jews together by reconciling the many disputations between them for those who would listen and thereby wholly opening of the faith universally toward all peoples. 

Christ came as a sacrifice for sin Mk. 10:45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serveand to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Christ's teachings were not for the purpose of uniting different factions. The truth is that His teaching would result in people being divided. Mt. 10:34-36 

34 Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earthI have not come to bring peacebut a sword.35 For I have come to set a man against his fatherand a daughter against her motherand a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.36 And a person’s enemies will be those
...[Message truncated]

 

 
From: Caryn (haleyC987)Sep-19 1:31 PM 
To: crusedude  (68 of 131) 
 40910.68 in reply to 40910.67 

crusedude said...

Honestly, though, much of what you said is speculation and assumption.

 

Only in your imagination however beautiful it may be, or not, what with others' knowledge is nothing but 2nd hand information to you, for knowledge is experienced where information is learned, well at least where desired.  Not that that matters one iota when it comes to your own relationship with God in Christ however.

My own life's work (over 50 years) including extended education is in the digs of ancient religious archeology where what appears the arrangement of tulip is way too newly ambiguous comparably.  While I appreciate your opinions and find them interesting, I'm of those who have never been given the luxury of forming a personal opinion just to close one or another, for there is and will always be more to learn "about" what you already know, if interested enough.

I can't think of anything to add to what I've already said what with modern tulip understandings as can be described greatly differ with the utmost highly accredited ancient Jewish religious, social and cultural biblical archeological evidences where thereby moving toward the early church.  I must say though had Calvin been alive around 500 years or so later he would surely be plucking a few of those tulip petals from a Qumran view made available.  :)

All that doesn't matter though.  What matters is people wholeheartedly believing Jesus enough toward understanding Him first and foremost, and why I always suggest that everyone get back to the gospels.  

crusedude said...

I am more theological,

:)

+

 

 
From: crusedudeSep-19 7:38 PM 
To: Caryn (haleyC987)  (69 of 131) 
 40910.69 in reply to 40910.68 

1. Quite an interesting response from you.  The difference is that we both work from two separate sources for final authority.  Yours seems to be what man has said and done with trying to reach God with various beliefs and religions.  These are interesting and can help explain why people are in the social conditions they find themselves in.  This could be presumption on my part, but I consider it well founded.  In short, religions aren't my final authority.  The early church was soon led astray and sold indulgences among other things.  So, the church, church fathers, ancient religions, or even Calvin, etc. aren't the final authority for me.  Again, these are sources of good information, not the final authority.

2. I say this out of belief and conviction, not boast or hubris.  The final authority for me is the 66 books of the Bible.  More specifically, the 1000s of MSS copies of the NT and the fewer in number MSS copies of the OT.  These constitute my final authority.  

3. We can put it this way.  The same Biblical and extra Biblical evidence/scripture is available to all of us.  I view the extra Biblical evidence/religions through the Bible.  You seem to have a tendency to do the opposite.  That certainly is your choice, I have made my choice clear.

4. That is why I argue from the Bible, both the OT and NT, and some of it even came from the gospels.  I agree with TULIP, because it agrees with the Bible.  My reasoning with Scripture backing has been explained previously.  Once the NT was finished, some Christians including Saint Augustine started to believe that salvation was according to God's election as opposed to man's freewill.  He started to think this way as early as 412 AD.  You can look up my previous post to Secondus555 to get the full quote and sourcing on Augustine.  I'm sure there were Christians earlier than Augustine who started to believe the same way; because the church ended up with the same Scriptures as we have.  They would have read Jn. 6:44, Ro.9 and other verses that I sited.  It would have been incredible if some early Christians didn't believe that salvation was according to sovereign election.

5. Now for a personal note.  I realize from your posts that you are of a greater intellectual capacity and educational background than me.  That doesn't deter me because.... Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

 

6. I let the Scriptures speak for me.

Lord Bless You

 

 

 

 
From: Caryn (haleyC987)Sep-20 2:05 PM 
To: crusedude  (70 of 131) 
 40910.70 in reply to 40910.69 

:)

crusedude said...

Yours seems to be what man has said and done with trying to reach God with various beliefs and religions.

Not at all.  My only interest has always only been Jesus where to me peoples' understanding along the way is always interesting.

crusedude said...

The early church was soon led astray and sold indulgences among other things.

Some were, but not all.

crusedude said...

I view the extra Biblical evidence/religions through the Bible.  You seem to have a tendency to do the opposite.

My view is both toward understanding whatever.  The ancient "secular" social evidences not found in the Bible support the witness of biblical Jesus and the apostles at the time and moving forward. News had spread far and wide about Jesus where multitudes were wanting to travel and see him for themselves, and did. And especially so the secular traveling trade merchants, for Jerusalem was in a major trade route.  Of these multitudes there are correspondences between family and/or friends talking about Jesus, some calling Him the miracle man.

crusedude said...

Once the NT was finished, some Christians including Saint Augustine started to believe that salvation was according to God's election as opposed to man's freewill. 

It's the "started to believe" the salvation election part to a mere human self-proclaimed finished fact that can be a bit more presumptuous than not, for once a theory turns fact, it turns right back to theory again about that newly found fact of an already fact, what with nobody knows what they don't know about the thoughts and ways of God and people, even though we want to.  It seems more at that we mere humans are simply on a need-to-know basis with God whether we like it or not, and to me utmost thankfully, what with God's thoughts and ways not our own to begin with. (Isa 55:8 and 65:2)  That's why our imaginations can and will end up twisting our own and others' ideas and opinions like a pretzel.

crusedude said...

I say this out of belief and conviction, not boast or hubris. 

This is very clear.

crusedude said...

I realize from your posts that you are of a greater intellectual capacity ...

Hardly, and far from it.  I've always been on a need to know basis with God, and glad of it.  There's just nothing more peaceful to me than God knowing what I don't, and that is ~everything~.

crusedude said...

That doesn't deter me ... Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

That's good news. :)

Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4:16 

oh wait.  Does that sound to you like people themselves to draw near the throne with their confidence and find grace?  Why would they need confidence if it were ~only~ God drawing them Himself?

crusedude said...

I let the Scriptures speak for me.

Well, scripture is actually speaking "to" you, speaking to your own heart, not the other guy's.

Like you've already noted:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Only God knows the other guy's heart, and utmost thankfully. :)

 

 

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