Gun Laws & Courts -  Gun owners and self-defense law (723 views) Notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussion.Subscribe
 
From: EdGlaze DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by host1/28/18 8:50 AM 
To: All  (20 of 21) 
 541.20 in reply to 541.19 

In Today’s Liberally Screwed-Up Society What is a Reasonable Self Defense Response?
Opinion by John Farnam
8 Jan 18

“Reasonable” Response.

A student asks:

“I’m in my 70s. When I’m the victim of an unprovoked attack by a younger, bigger, stronger person(s) who is using only his fists, elbows, knees, and/or shod feet, how much of a pommeling am I expected to absorb, and for how long, before I employ deadly force in order to stop the attack and thus prevent myself from being injured/murdered?

We have seen several instances where a single blow from a fist to an unprotected head proved fatal, many others where such a blow caused permanent, disabling injury and/or disfigurement.

Of course, ‘injury’ is easy to demonstrate AFTER it has been inflicted. But, the object of legitimate self-defense is to PREVENT such lethal/disabling outcomes. How can I persuasively demonstrate what didn’t happen?”

My comment:

No matter whom you ask, you won’t get a very satisfactory answer to that question, and mine (as follows) won’t be very satisfying either!

We all look for “safety” in “the law.” We ask ourselves, “When I strictly follow the law can I know that I will never be prosecuted?”

In fact, many naive instructors keep reiterating, “Know the law,” as if that were even possible, and as if that represents a guarantee that bad things will never happen to you.

If you were to read every law carefully, along with each ordinance, rule “guideline,” and regulation that could ever possibly apply to you as a gun-owner/carrier, particularly as you travel around the Country, there would not be enough years left in your life to complete the task!

Even then, the task would be largely an exercise in futility, because we no longer have a “nation of laws.” We have a “nation of agendas.”

Some laws, like our immigration laws for example, are openly, deliberately, and contemptuously violated every day, with no consequence! Laws against possession and use of marijuana are openly violated in entire states, with no consequence.

So then, what is “the law” when it can be ignored by state governments? What other “laws” can we all ignore?

I am today seeing officer-involved shootings which are completely justified, by any standard. The shooting then being the subject of civil suits, where cities don’t even put up a fight, as they dole-out untold millions of taxpayer dollars to the “bereaved” families of vicious, violent, (and mercifully dead) criminals but these innocent officers. Officers who acted properly and did correctly the job we pay them to do, are also being viciously prosecuted by politically-active prosecutors, who cynically see an unjust conviction merely as a career stepping-stone.

So, when you’re involved in a self-defense shooting, what will be important?

The factor that will most sway prosecutors is usually the way the event is reported in the papers and other news media.

When the headline is, “Local Gun-Nut Slays Honor Student,” you can bet the system will be under immense pressure to prosecute, while facts of the case shrink to irrelevance!

When the shooting is cross-racial, hang on to your hat! You may find yourself being prosecuted merely to mollify rioters!

When the shooting takes place during an election year, hang on to your hat! A political candidate may push for prosecution merely to court votes from a particular minority. We saw this exact phenomenon in the Zimmerman Case in FL in 2008!

So, where is “safety?”

There is no safety, but here are some things I can recommend:

1) Be a good person! Heaven knows none of us are perfect, but good people ever strive towards goodness, decency, and personal honesty. At the same time, be very good at minding your own business!

2) (a) Don’t go to stupid places.
    (b) Don’t associate with stupid people.
    (c) Don’t do stupid things.
    (d) Be in bed by 10pm (your own bed!).
    (e) Have a “normal” appearance.
    (f) Don’t fail the attitude test!

3) When you go armed, keep weapon(s) discreetly out of sight. Don’t talk about your guns. Don’t “show” your gun(s) to anyone. Don’t brandish your gun except for good cause.

4) When you must shoot, use your sights, press your trigger carefully, and hit with every shot.

5) Stop shooting when the threat(s) is clearly neutralized.

6) Don’t chase suspects!

7) Don’t flee the scene, except as necessary to preserve your own safety

8) Be first to the phone! Report the incident to police as soon as practicable.

9) Know what to say, and what not to say, to police. Know your lines!

10) Get your lawyer involved as quickly as possible

11) Be prepared for an unpleasant aftermath, endless media lies, PTSD, complete disruption of your life. Don’t expect anyone to be sympathetic, nor “understanding.”

12) Like any traumatic event, you’ll never really “get over it,” but as days and weeks pass, you’ll be able to put it in perspective, and move on.

I realize the preceding is inadequate and grossly oversimplified, but it may be helpful.

There are no guarantees!

 

 
From: EdGlaze DelphiPlus Member Icon Posted by host1/28/18 11:49 AM 
To: All  (21 of 21) 
 541.21 in reply to 541.20 

Addendum to
reasonable self defense:

I’ve received many responses to yesterday’s Quip about lethal self-defense, as you might imagine, and I thank all who took the time to get back with me.

Here are some particulars that need to be added:

13) Don’t shoot unless you have to! It all comes down to that. When you need to shoot immediately in order to prevent yourself from being crippled/murdered, it will probably be blatantly obvious! When it isn’t, you probably don’t need to shoot!

14) When you need to shoot, shoot with sufficient volume and accuracy necessary to produce lethal wound(s) and thus finish the fight quickly. The longer this fight goes on, the more deadly risk you expose yourself to. When there must be a lethal response on your part to a deadly attack, get the fight over with as quickly as you can. In legal parlance, you can’t shoot someone in a “non-deadly” manner, nor should you try!

15) Don’t approach downed/wounded suspects. When a suspect has been wounded, even when he is on the ground and not moving, stay well away from him. He is still extremely dangerous!

16) Whatever you do, or don’t do, it won’t be “perfect.” Understand and expect that many will come along afterward and point-out where, and how, your could have done it better. And, they’ll probably be right! Happily, the law doesn’t require you to be “perfect.” It does require you to be “reasonable,” however the System chooses to define the term.

17) Join ACLDN (Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network)! They are a powerful ally, and one you’ll be glad you have!

Some have asked for an expanded explanation of how to deal with responding police. For a competent explanation, you really need to come to a Class, but maybe the following, will be helpful:

When confronting police in the aftermath of a lethal-force event, have no guns, nor other weapons, in your hands, nor showing.

Your lines are:

  • Officers, I'm glad you’re here!
  • I’m the one who called.
  • Those men attacked us.
  • They tried to murder us.
  • We were in fear for our lives.
  • I will sign a complaint.
  • I will be happy to answer your questions, but not until my lawyer is here.
  • I don’t feel well, and I may be injured. I need to go to a hospital, now.

Each of those points, of course, needs expansion, but that is the base scenario.

Even when you don’t believe you’re physically injured, it is a good idea to get to a hospital to be checked-over. You may be injured and not realize it!

I suggest pointing out to police:

  • Ongoing threats
  • Articles of evidence that may not be obvious
  • Witnesses who may have seen what happened but are not obvious.

Aside from those exceptions, silence is your best ally in the short term. Your lawyer may eventually permit you to be interviewed by police, but only after you’ve had an opportunity to compose yourself, and even then, only in his presence.

I hope the foregoing clears-up some questions, but none of it represents an adequate substitute for attending a class.

This is serious business, and you need to approach it seriously!

  • Edited January 28, 2018 12:15 pm  by  EdGlaze
 

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