Coalition of the Confused

Hosted by Jenifer (Zarknorph)

Confused malcontents swilling Chardonnay while awaiting the Zombie Apocalypse.

  • 813
    MEMBERS
  • 45434
    MESSAGES
  • 77
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

Niqab, burka and veils   The U.K and Europe

Started Feb-20 by Di (amina046); 2985 views.
RGoss99

From: RGoss99

Feb-24

I hear mumblings here on Mallorca, my village is 10% Muslim, but don´t see a  problem for the following reasos:

1. On school days an outsider would not be able to identify a Muslim from a non-Muslim by clothing.

2. During the Bush administration the Muslim market stopped selling Coke, Pepsi, Schwepse products, and shifted to Mecca Cola (French-Algerian company), that ceased about the time Obama became president.

3. There are two occasions where I see Muslim traditional dress, either older married women, recent arrivals and Muslim and/or school festivals for high school girls because while their every day clothes are western, they consider the American pop dress up styles immodest. Our girl´s basket ball team does not dress any differently then a similar team in the U.S. or the U.K. 

4. Our villae has a judge, who invites the local mulah into court sessions on an advistory role where Muslims are involved. The court has no tolerance for Muslims attempting to enforce Shiíra laws that are different from our local laws. 

5. I was teaching in Turkey a little over a month ago, flew to Istanbul vis Barcelona. In BCN I saw only 5 Muslim in Burkahs, but in Istanbl, I only saw 1, and 1 other in Anatolia. Many law enforcement Turks are women, but only about 1/2 wore the equivalent of a U.K. Balaclava but with the entire face exposed. 

6. The only laws we have here, and they have not been uuccessfully challenged. Is that women with face covering are not allowed in pubic buildings, theatres, sports event venues. This is justified for security reasons as these places all have CCTV coverage, which would be useless if women were allowed in with just their eyes showing. I have never seen a burkah on this island, and the majority of Muslim women do not cover their hair.

there is however one area of self segregation depending on which branch of Islam. Very few of our teen girls use our swimming pool, but this does not extend down to girlsof primary school age. but this is a matter of personal and/or family choice, and I have not seen any public control over public behavior, as I have seen from some born again types, who shout the equivalent of slut or whore against Europeans whose personal dress they consider inappropriate.

Di (amina046)

From: Di (amina046)

Feb-24

LOL, I am afraid all of them got in

In reply toRe: msg 2
RGoss99

From: RGoss99

Feb-24

speaking of Judaism that also fits with what RC nuns used to wear until the middle 60s, and women in church generally. Today, in my village the only RC head covering seen is worn by girls for first communion, and brides also a direct descendent from Jewish tradition. In Los Angeles there are some private Jewish girl´s schools, no veil and the uniform is tartan preppy, white shirt and tie, but with leggins, pretty much as the Catholic private schools here. Aside in an earlier post for lack of a betteer word, I referred to the head covering in your next post as a balaclava but with the face exposed entirely. This is quite common but not a majority in Turkey, and als on some Muslim owned airlies. One difference I noticed in a Jordanian plane, same uniform as your photo, but instead of trousers, a maxiskirt with boots.

bml00

From: bml00

Feb-24

Orthodox Jewish Women and Muslim Women are forbidden to wear trousers as it is believed they cross gender that is why the long skirts in Islam the same in Judaism - Islam took the example from the Jews

BM

RGoss99

From: RGoss99

Feb-24

Recruiting Muslims is not a "guise of equal opportunity" it is a right in a democracy. Not only that it is practical that the profile of a law enforcment agency should match the profile of the population it serves. America found out the hard way back in the Watts Riots. If cops are visually different then those they serve, there are more likely to be misunderstandings between cops and civilians, and between cops themselves. 

Here is a rather silly example. There is a Mexican drink called "jamaica". It is sold in California as a syrub, but by weight dried in Mexico. One day diving north an Anglo at the border gave me a hard time, accused me of drug smuggline, and making a big show of his racism. I asked him if the agent at the next entry point was hispanic. He said "yes" but what does it matter. I said simply take the bag over to him and ask what it contained. He did, problem solved. Can you imagine the problems at the border if all the border patrol on the border were anglos? In line with another post when the Spanish forces are stationed in the Middle East the government tends to end troops from here because, we are more sensitive to the cultural issues in dealing with Muslims, then say Basques, Galegos, Asturians. In the U.S. the census documents ethncities and uses the numbers when they decide to hire for local post offices and the languges posted there. I have lived in many different places, and I find that communication is more efficient if I take into consieration cultural body language. Here is an example just in Los Angeles. If I am approaching someone comming down the street, and my chin is parallel to the ground, in my family, Scotland and other places, I acknowledge them by lowering my chin, but in East or South central (hispanic or Black) in the same situation I lift my chin. However if I did that in my original neighborhood, I could be asking for a fight. Many of the problems U.S. forces have had in Iraq and Afghanistan, are simply the result of cultural insinsetivity. So if an American soldier in all innosence insults the father in a Muslim household in Iraq, even if nothing negative occurs, that is one step towards hostility on the part of his son when he grows up. When I was growing up, Scotland did not have Christmas day off work because it is not scriptural according to strict Protestants. My family is Catholic so in our town house window we would often have a candle and wreath at Christmas time, which was just asking for a drunk protestant to throw a rock through the window. In Glasgow, one does not carry a gold football shirt in a clear plastic bag on a Protestant marching day. A Spanish Jewish tourist waiting to board his bus, should not be waving his wine sack and singing Hava Naghila. Of course he has every right to do so, but if he is sober and smart he would know better then to do so. The same works in reverse. You are familir with Doritos in orange or green packages, but in Turkey they also have a red package where the flavor is tomato and hashish (not a good thing to deboard with in Los Angeles, or a yougurt flavored with `poppy seeds. Here in my village kid are very integrated and often are not that sophisticated when it comes to diet. Our standard roll given out at festes is "ensaïmada", but when serving, if a muslim reaches for a wedge of one, I wave my finger and mouth "haram" because "saïm" is pork fat. Here males kiss males, women kiss women, and European adults kiss each other, but one has to read body langauge before deciding for a male to kiss a Muslim woman. St Andrews is a very multinational university, but at dinner parties, my exwife had a problem adjusting to disappearing into the kitchen with the other women of some cultures after the meal. So if the U.K. has a significant "foreign" minority in its population it is only reasonable for them to be represented in the police forces also.

In reply toRe: msg 9
RGoss99

From: RGoss99

Feb-24

I feel the same way. However in my experience here the young people don´t seem to have a problem dressing like the majority, except for formal occasions. So in my street the only time I see kids dressed traditionally are times like Ramadan. In a class I was teaching in Turkey, half the stuents were Spanish half Turkish Except for the last night party, by dress one could not tell the difference, but some of the Turkish women were wearing hijabs as a part of their dressing up for the occasion. Our high school president I have only seen once dressed traditionally - when she was giving a speech at the end of term party (we don´t have graduations here). 

RGoss99

From: RGoss99

Feb-24

There are still Catholic places like that (Rome, Malta, Lourdes) Probably parts of Spain, but on Mallorca while have not seen any over the top styles, the dress code is very casual when it comes to churches. However, and not just at the beach, there are during tourist season women in outfits who seem to have a need to attract attention. Last year on Menorca, there was a girl walking in the bike lane who seemed to be nakid untl I rang the bell to get her to move to the pedestrian walk, because the dental floss sized strap in her bathing suit bottom was so small that it had dissibpeared into her cleavage in the back, so with her top ties under her hair, all one saw from the back was skin. It must be difficult for some females with other countries dictating fashions. If for no other reason then sun burn, most girls in our pool wear t-shirts over their bathing suits. BTW our traditional folk costume for women has the hair covered, and jjudgng by photographs taken before the 50s that was everyday clothes in the villages.

bml00

From: bml00

Feb-24

back in the 60's in the South of France it was not UNUSUAL to see women Top Less .

Here in Israel I cant recall ever seeing anybody topless , there is a Nudist Beach up the coast but on all the other beaches it is respectable .

There are two beaches in TA given to the Religious , one is for Women the other for Men , the Religious women (Jews like their Muslim counterparts ) go into the sea mostly dressed , bit like sitting in the bath with your pants and socks on

BM

adwil

From: adwil

Feb-24

Good. I'm glad we're in agreement.

RGoss99

From: RGoss99

Feb-24

Mallorca has always been a tourist beech place. But in the past, say pre WWI modesty 

was very strict. Upper class women would enter sort of a two wheeled closit on wheels, with a horse with taces on the back. The driver would back the "closit" down into the water so the woman in relative privacy could step in usually wearing bloomers under a sort of just below the knee length dress, closed at the neck, with long sleeves and of course a hat tied down with a scarf. You might have heard of a present problem. There are places, and Megaluf is the most famous where Brittish travel agencies sell packages emphasizing bad behavior. the problem is that the international tourist businesses tend to fight local government faighting agains such things as public nudity, and sex on the street, and all sorts of negative activityies. A custom started n our third island (Eivissa) called "balconing" The profile is male under 35, single, alcohol, package tour. The simple idea and stupid is to jump off your alcony into the pool. Unfortunately if you are an olympic broadjumper and the deck is two sun beds wide, you are not going to make it. Last year there were 14 deaths, season starts with Easter Week, so far only one death this week. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGdnNd0VZyg

TOP