Coalition of the Confused

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Crimes of War   World Wide WTF?

Started 10/16/19 by Jenifer (Zarknorph); 65019 views.
adwil

From: adwil

10/21/19

BerrySteph said:

You're a full bore Nazi-excuser and apologist. Your excuses for Jew-robbing and killing just get more and more silly.

Ah the logic of a Berry. No facts, no references, just insults.  

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

10/21/19

adwil said:

You have the link to the BBC program. Click on it and you can listen to Lipstadt  saying exactly what I've quoted.

I'm more interested to know why she lies about the number of victims of the Holocaust.

I'm not interested to know why she lies about the transcript of a hugely important case in the Jerusalem District Court.

Since I know why she lies about the latter - what happened in 1954/1955 convinced very large numbers of Israelis that their own leadership were behind the Holocaust.

In fact, Eichmann had to be kidnapped from Argentina to prove that, far from Rudolf Kastner and his like having brought about the Holocaust, it was the Palestinians who were to blame!

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

10/21/19

adwil said:

Ah the logic of a Berry. No facts, no references, just insults.  

Your excuses for Jew-robbing and killing just get more and more silly.

bml00

From: bml00

10/21/19

Cornered as usual not a fact to his name 

BM

adwil

From: adwil

10/21/19

BerrySteph said:

Your excuses for Jew-robbing and killing just get more and more silly.

You have no answer to the points I've made. Nothing changes, does it?

"I'm more interested to know why she lies about the number of victims of the Holocaust."

Lipstadt doesn't. It's a rough estimate. We still have no real idea of the exact number of people murdered during the Holocaust. 

"Eichmann had to be kidnapped from Argentina to prove that, far from Rudolf Kastner and his like having brought about the Holocaust, it was the Palestinians who were to blame!"

No comment. Your desperate accusation speaks for itself and makes me question your mental equilibrium.  

I haven't any more time until around midnight, so I'll leave Becher and get back to your assertions that Zionists were responsible for the first example of most forms of terrorism, in the morning.  

adwil

From: adwil

10/21/19

bml00 said:

"Cornered as usual not a fact to his name "

Hardly a surprise. He hasn't changed over the years. He's like a communist friend I used to argue with in the 50s. I'd argue him in ever decreasing circles but once he'd been demolished, he just went back to the assertions that he started with. He's still a good friend, by the way, still thinks of himself as a communist whose party has deserted him, but his views are now far closer to Johnson and Farage than Karl Marx.

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

10/21/19

adwil said:

You have no answer to the points I've made. 

You've not made any points.

adwil said:

 "I'm more interested to know why she lies about the number of victims of the Holocaust." Lipstadt doesn't. It's a rough estimate. We still have no real idea of the exact number of people murdered during the Holocaust. 

Lipstadt states this (or appears to do so, its not actually in her text, I think its on the cover of some editions of her landmark book expensively destroying the career of another observer and researcher).

She states that Deniers are:

"those who insist that the death of six million Jews in Nazi concentration camps is nothing but a hoax perpetrated by a powerful Zionist conspiracy"

A statement that's patently untrue - six million is not the number of deaths in the camps. She seems to have about doubled the real figure:

Total death in camps is at least 2,848,000. Auschwitz complex 1 million, Treblinka 2 925,000, Belzec: 434,508, Sobibor: at least 167,000, Chelmno: 156,000–172,000, other facilities that the Germans designated as concentration camps: at least 150,000. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution

Its not a very important falsehood - but why be so sloppy about a number that others are jailed for disputing?

I'd also question whether any Deniers claim that a "Zionist conspiracy" is to blame - most of the antisemitic are supportive of Israel, not critics of it!

More dishonesty from the woman who claims to have brought down and bankrupted the most successful author (non-qualified "historian") on WW2 but had nothing to do with it:

... The most "insidious" forms of Holocaust denial, Lipstadt suggests, are "immoral equivalencies": that is, denying the uniqueness of The Holocaust.[57 Lipstadt, "Denying the Holocaust: the growing assault on truth and memory" chapter 11.]

This argument has intriguing implications.

... To question a survivor's testimony, to denounce the role of Jewish collaborators, to suggest that Germans suffered during the bombing of Dresden or that any state except Germany committed crimes in World War II - this is all evidence, according to Lipstadt, of Holocaust denial.[55 Lipstadt "Denying the Holocaust" p.6, 12, 22, 89-90.] cited in https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VrqK5VdO2i0C&pg=PA70

And yet, this top Holocaust scholar Deborah Lipstadt (Dorot Professor of Modern Jewish and Holocaust Studies at Emory University, appointed by President Clinton in 1994 to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council) apparently does it herself:

... [Deborah Lipstadt] wryly observes that Holocaust survivors frequently maintain they were personally examined by Josef Mengele at Auschwitz.[3 Elena Lappin, "Man With Two Heads" p.48. D.D. Guttenplan, "The Holocaust on Trial," in Atlantic Monthly February 2000 <ed - article no longer on line> p.62] cited in https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VrqK5VdO2i0C&pg=PA70

I wouldn't be in your shoes if you doubted a Holocaust survivor in this fashion!

adwil said:

"Eichmann had to be kidnapped from Argentina to prove that, far from Rudolf Kastner and his like having brought about the Holocaust, it was the Palestinians who were to blame!" No comment. Your desperate accusation speaks for itself and makes me question your mental equilibrium.   

I'm right and you know it. Eichmann's trial exposed (and a top Zionist philosopher and observer was startled to document it) this:

1963 ... To a Jew this role of the Jewish leaders in the destruction of their own people is undoubtedly the darkest chapter of the whole dark story. ... there was no distinction between the highly assimilated Jewish communities of Central and Western Europe and the Yiddish-speaking masses of the East.

In Amsterdam as in Warsaw, in Berlin as in Budapest, Jewish officials could be trusted to compile the lists of persons and of their property, to secure money from the deportees to defray the expenses of their deportation and extermination, to keep track of vacated apartments, to supply police forces to help seize Jews and get them on trains, until, as a last gesture, they handed over the assets of the Jewish community in good order for final confiscation.

They distributed the Yellow Star badges, and sometimes, as in Warsaw, "the sale of the armbands became a regular business; there were ordinary armbands of cloth and fancy plastic armbands which were washable." In the Nazi-inspired, but not Nazi dictated, manifestoes they issued, we still can sense how they enjoyed their new power - "The Central Jewish Council has been granted the right of absolute disposal over all Jewish spiritual and material wealth and over all Jewish manpower," as the first announcement of the Budapest Council phrased it.

We know how the Jewish officials felt when they became instruments of murder ... No one bothered to swear the Jewish officials to secrecy; they were voluntary "bearers of secrets," either in order to assure quiet and prevent panic, as in Dr. Kastner's case, or out of "humane" considerations, such as that "living in the expectation of death by gassing would only be the harder," as in the case of Dr. Leo Baeck, former Chief Rabbi of Berlin.

During the Eichmann trial, one witness pointed out the unfortunate consequences of this kind of "humanity" - people volunteered for deportation from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz and denounced those who tried to tell them the truth as being "not sane." https://www.academia.edu/6230312/Arendt_Hannah_-_Eichmann_in_Jerusalem

Hannah Arendt provides this "Note to the Reader":

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bml00

From: bml00

10/21/19

Morning

As predicted the liar strays from the facts brings in unrelated issues and people and of course there is the Berry “ maybe” / “ possibly “ etc

As usual job well done 

BM

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

10/22/19

Lipstadt states that Deniers are:

"those who insist that the death of six million Jews in Nazi concentration camps is nothing but a hoax perpetrated by a powerful Zionist conspiracy"

Which is false on two counts - between 1 and 3 million Jews were murdered in their homes or fields.

Nor, as far as I can know, do they speak of a "powerful Zionist conspiracy".

C'mon, BM, you've been so helpful up until now, edjumicate me about the deniers.

bml00

From: bml00

10/22/19

The usual predictable end to the idiots lies

well done

BM

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