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Crimes of War   World Wide WTF?

Started 10/16/19 by Jenifer (Zarknorph); 66139 views.
adwil

From: adwil

10/21/19

bml00 said:

"Cornered as usual not a fact to his name "

Hardly a surprise. He hasn't changed over the years. He's like a communist friend I used to argue with in the 50s. I'd argue him in ever decreasing circles but once he'd been demolished, he just went back to the assertions that he started with. He's still a good friend, by the way, still thinks of himself as a communist whose party has deserted him, but his views are now far closer to Johnson and Farage than Karl Marx.

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

10/21/19

adwil said:

You have no answer to the points I've made. 

You've not made any points.

adwil said:

 "I'm more interested to know why she lies about the number of victims of the Holocaust." Lipstadt doesn't. It's a rough estimate. We still have no real idea of the exact number of people murdered during the Holocaust. 

Lipstadt states this (or appears to do so, its not actually in her text, I think its on the cover of some editions of her landmark book expensively destroying the career of another observer and researcher).

She states that Deniers are:

"those who insist that the death of six million Jews in Nazi concentration camps is nothing but a hoax perpetrated by a powerful Zionist conspiracy"

A statement that's patently untrue - six million is not the number of deaths in the camps. She seems to have about doubled the real figure:

Total death in camps is at least 2,848,000. Auschwitz complex 1 million, Treblinka 2 925,000, Belzec: 434,508, Sobibor: at least 167,000, Chelmno: 156,000–172,000, other facilities that the Germans designated as concentration camps: at least 150,000. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution

Its not a very important falsehood - but why be so sloppy about a number that others are jailed for disputing?

I'd also question whether any Deniers claim that a "Zionist conspiracy" is to blame - most of the antisemitic are supportive of Israel, not critics of it!

More dishonesty from the woman who claims to have brought down and bankrupted the most successful author (non-qualified "historian") on WW2 but had nothing to do with it:

... The most "insidious" forms of Holocaust denial, Lipstadt suggests, are "immoral equivalencies": that is, denying the uniqueness of The Holocaust.[57 Lipstadt, "Denying the Holocaust: the growing assault on truth and memory" chapter 11.]

This argument has intriguing implications.

... To question a survivor's testimony, to denounce the role of Jewish collaborators, to suggest that Germans suffered during the bombing of Dresden or that any state except Germany committed crimes in World War II - this is all evidence, according to Lipstadt, of Holocaust denial.[55 Lipstadt "Denying the Holocaust" p.6, 12, 22, 89-90.] cited in https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VrqK5VdO2i0C&pg=PA70

And yet, this top Holocaust scholar Deborah Lipstadt (Dorot Professor of Modern Jewish and Holocaust Studies at Emory University, appointed by President Clinton in 1994 to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council) apparently does it herself:

... [Deborah Lipstadt] wryly observes that Holocaust survivors frequently maintain they were personally examined by Josef Mengele at Auschwitz.[3 Elena Lappin, "Man With Two Heads" p.48. D.D. Guttenplan, "The Holocaust on Trial," in Atlantic Monthly February 2000 <ed - article no longer on line> p.62] cited in https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VrqK5VdO2i0C&pg=PA70

I wouldn't be in your shoes if you doubted a Holocaust survivor in this fashion!

adwil said:

"Eichmann had to be kidnapped from Argentina to prove that, far from Rudolf Kastner and his like having brought about the Holocaust, it was the Palestinians who were to blame!" No comment. Your desperate accusation speaks for itself and makes me question your mental equilibrium.   

I'm right and you know it. Eichmann's trial exposed (and a top Zionist philosopher and observer was startled to document it) this:

1963 ... To a Jew this role of the Jewish leaders in the destruction of their own people is undoubtedly the darkest chapter of the whole dark story. ... there was no distinction between the highly assimilated Jewish communities of Central and Western Europe and the Yiddish-speaking masses of the East.

In Amsterdam as in Warsaw, in Berlin as in Budapest, Jewish officials could be trusted to compile the lists of persons and of their property, to secure money from the deportees to defray the expenses of their deportation and extermination, to keep track of vacated apartments, to supply police forces to help seize Jews and get them on trains, until, as a last gesture, they handed over the assets of the Jewish community in good order for final confiscation.

They distributed the Yellow Star badges, and sometimes, as in Warsaw, "the sale of the armbands became a regular business; there were ordinary armbands of cloth and fancy plastic armbands which were washable." In the Nazi-inspired, but not Nazi dictated, manifestoes they issued, we still can sense how they enjoyed their new power - "The Central Jewish Council has been granted the right of absolute disposal over all Jewish spiritual and material wealth and over all Jewish manpower," as the first announcement of the Budapest Council phrased it.

We know how the Jewish officials felt when they became instruments of murder ... No one bothered to swear the Jewish officials to secrecy; they were voluntary "bearers of secrets," either in order to assure quiet and prevent panic, as in Dr. Kastner's case, or out of "humane" considerations, such as that "living in the expectation of death by gassing would only be the harder," as in the case of Dr. Leo Baeck, former Chief Rabbi of Berlin.

During the Eichmann trial, one witness pointed out the unfortunate consequences of this kind of "humanity" - people volunteered for deportation from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz and denounced those who tried to tell them the truth as being "not sane." https://www.academia.edu/6230312/Arendt_Hannah_-_Eichmann_in_Jerusalem

Hannah Arendt provides this "Note to the Reader":

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bml00

From: bml00

10/21/19

Morning

As predicted the liar strays from the facts brings in unrelated issues and people and of course there is the Berry “ maybe” / “ possibly “ etc

As usual job well done 

BM

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

10/22/19

Lipstadt states that Deniers are:

"those who insist that the death of six million Jews in Nazi concentration camps is nothing but a hoax perpetrated by a powerful Zionist conspiracy"

Which is false on two counts - between 1 and 3 million Jews were murdered in their homes or fields.

Nor, as far as I can know, do they speak of a "powerful Zionist conspiracy".

C'mon, BM, you've been so helpful up until now, edjumicate me about the deniers.

bml00

From: bml00

10/22/19

The usual predictable end to the idiots lies

well done

BM

adwil

From: adwil

10/22/19

adwil said:
 "I'm more interested to know why she lies about the number of victims of the Holocaust." Lipstadt doesn't. It's a rough estimate. We still have no real idea of the exact number of people murdered during the Holocaust. 

This is how you should have set out this comment.


 <<I'm more interested to know why she lies about the number of victims of the Holocaust.>>   (Those are your words, indicated by <<__>>)

adwil said: "Lipstadt doesn't. It's a rough estimate. We still have no real idea of the exact number of people murdered during the Holocaust."

Those are my words indicated by "__"

You need to make it clearer who the quote belongs to.

_______________________________________

Now to deal with your first point.

"Lipstadt states this (or appears to do so, its not actually in her text, I think its on the cover of some editions of her landmark book "

Are you complaining about Lipstadt or her Publisher's blurb? 

"those who insist that the death of six million Jews in Nazi concentration camps is nothing but a hoax perpetrated by a powerful Zionist conspiracy"

Is this Lipstadt or her publisher?  I don't own the book so can't check.

Your quote appears in an Amazon description. Who wrote it? If Amazon, there's no case for Lipstadt to answer.

You delight in the imaginary damage you think her reputation has suffered: "expensively destroying the career of another observer and researcher)."

But she hasn't had her career 'destroyed'. That's wishful thinking. She's Professor of Holocaust Studies at Brandeis Uni. She can hardly rise higher in her field. 

Now let's look at your allegation 

"She states that Deniers are:

"those who insist that the death of six million Jews in Nazi concentration camps is nothing but a hoax perpetrated by a powerful Zionist conspiracy"

"A statement that's patently untrue - six million is not the number of deaths in the camps. She seems to have about doubled the real figure:

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution"

You're ignoring the point she (OR her publisher or Amazon) are making by focusing on a detail.  It is demonstrably true that Holocaust deniers assert that the Holocaust was a hoax perpetrated by Jews. That's the important bit.

You can argue about the figures until 'the cows come home'. Whether 3 million or 6 million died in the Camps is irrelevant. Don't forget the Jewish slave labourers who were worked to death in the sub-camps and factories. Don't omit the Jews that were murdered by being gassed in buses and vans in Russia and Serbia. Don't omit those Jews who died on the 'Death Marches'. Don't omit the Jews who died of typhus and other diseases in the camps. The total was about 6 million. 

All the deaths count.

Then you make some silly (deliberate?) mistakes. .. "To question a survivor's testimony, to denounce the role of Jewish collaborators, to suggest that Germans suffered during the bombing of Dresden or that any state except Germany committed crimes in World War II - this is all evidence, according to Lipstadt, of Holocaust denial.[55 Lipstadt "Denying the Holocaust" p.6, 12, 22, 89-90.] cited in https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VrqK5VdO2i0C&pg=PA70"

Unfortunately you're being inaccurate. The words above were written by Norman Finkelstein on page 70 of "The Holocaust industry,"  

Your next piece of evidence allegedly comes from Atlantic Monthly. You reference it there but your link takes me to page 70 of Finklestein's book where there is no mention of what you allege.

Sloppy or what!!

I was momentarily pleased to see an accurate (and referenced) quote from Arendts 'Eichmann in Jerusalem'. 

 Then you spoil it all with a stupid piece of anti-Semitism which shows your true motivation. 

"(Arendt is of course lying - those she claims are the Jews were actually the Zionists in their number, elbowing their way to the lead, accepting Nazi inducements to betray their own people just as, 7 years earlier in 1933, they'd accepted American money to betray their own people, preaching "Jews cannot be Germans")."

The 'Jews cannot be Germans' quote comes from the Nazi campaign against the Jews in Hildersheim. It's a Nazi slogan. 

https://www.jta.org/1934/03/16/archive/the-new-boycott-campaign-against-jews-in-german/amp

You KNOW that because I told you in an earlier post.

Now prove the rest of what you've alleged.

adwil

From: adwil

10/22/19

"usual predictable end to the idiots lies"

Unfortunately, not in his closed mind. He'll just repeat the same assertions next time he addresses this subject.

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

10/22/19

adwil said:

adwil said:  "I'm more interested to know why she lies about the number of victims of the Holocaust." Lipstadt doesn't. It's a rough estimate. 

You're denying the six million number - as top Holocaust Schollar, Deborah Lipstadt does.

I'm reasonably satisfied that the six million number is genuine - who has ever argued its considerably more?

Its not a rough estimate - its a lie - between 3 and 5 million Jews died in the concentration camps. Between 1 and 3 million died in their homes or in the open.

If you lie about it now then that makes its gravely suspicious when you attack Holocaust Deniers for having a lower estimate.

(I'm satisfied that its correct because its near contemporaneous - and the Zionists hated it so much when it came out!)

Other people are throw in prison have their lies destroyed for disputing this number - you're now saying that its a fraud.

***

I may or may not be able to trash the rest of your falsehoods right now, there is only one thing that needs immediate response:

The phrase "Jews cannot be Germans" (I don't even know what it is in German) may have been used by Nazis - we seem to have no evidence for that (which is pretty mysterious).

What we know, from passionate Zionist Black, is that the Zionists were pleased with it and used it.

And we have evidence, from kosher sources, that Chaim Weizmann and the other Zionists were expressing this openly in 1919/1920.

Chaim Weizmann and the other Zionists saw the refugees of WW1 and wanted them in Palestine with the blessing and money of the British. Huge efforts by the British until 1925 to make this work ended in failure and by 1930 the ghastly experiment was failing.

That's why the Zionists set about destroying Germany unless it would expel the Jews. More to follow.

In reply toRe: msg 80
bml00

From: bml00

10/22/19

BerrySteph said:

The phrase "Jews cannot be Germans" (I don't even know what it is in German) may have been used by Nazis - we seem to have no evidence for that (which is pretty mysterious).

The LIAR  prick has used and lied the above quote so many times it is incredible and now faced with facts he is f..ked totally as usual

BM

adwil

From: adwil

10/22/19

BerrySteph said:

I may or may not be able to trash the rest of your falsehoods right now, there is only one thing that needs immediate response: The phrase "Jews cannot be Germans" (I don't even know what it is in German) may have been used by Nazis - we seem to have no evidence for that (which is pretty mysterious). What we know, from passionate Zionist Black, is that the Zionists were pleased with it and used it. And we have evidence, from kosher sources, that Chaim Weizmann and the other Zionists were expressing this openly in 1919/1920. Chaim Weizmann and the other Zionists saw the refugees of WW1 and wanted them in Palestine with the blessing and money of the British. Huge efforts by the British until 1925 to make this work ended in failure and by 1930 the ghastly experiment was failing. That's why the Zionists set about destroying Germany unless it would expel the Jews.

Present some evidence. 

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