Coalition of the Confused

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New build concentration camps   Africa and the Middle East

Started 10/20/19 by BerrySteph; 4175 views.
adwil

From: adwil

10/27/19

<<When did that happen?>>

"Late 90s onwards and accelerated, no longer needs court hearings."

You're correct there is a law.

Unfortunately the law isn't working and there's little restitution of confiscated properties to either Jewish or Polish citizens.

If families don't have the documents to their confiscated property, they have no claim, even if Polish records show them as owners or occupiers.

If the property was expropriated by the Communist Governments  after the war, no restitution is possible except through Civil Courts because of the Nationalisation Acts and that's expensive and takes a lot of time.

As the Polish Union of Real Estate Property Owners (UREPO) states:  “The unconstitutionality of the nationalization acts, which violate the fundamental principles of the protection of civil rights and liberties…imposes on the current authorities, who explicitly dissociate from the actions of the authorities of the Polish People’s Republic, a legal and moral obligation to provide fair recompense for nationalized property, is a failure to move beyond the injustices of the past, and an unwillingness to instigate the changes necessary to restore stolen property to its rightful owners.”

And (same source): "As of yet, no such recompense has been provided."

 As the Ministry of Foreign Affairs insists: “Most of the real estate nationalized between 1944 and 1962 underwent material and legal transformations which rule out its restitution in kind to former owners.”

Source: https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/roadblocks-to-jewish-restitution-polands-unsettled-property/

There have been suggestions about the sort of compensation the Polish Gov can provide short of restitution of the confiscated property:

"Pawel Szalamacha, Secretary of State at the Ministry of the Treasury from 2006 to 2008, and the current Executive Director of the Sobieski Institute, a Polish socio-political think tank, advocates a more mediated position. “Because restitution of original properties is hardly conceivable, compensation must be paid in liquid form, as cash or government bonds at a reasonable proportion, between 15 and 20%.”

“The millions of hectares of uncultivated, expropriated land still held by Agency for Agricultural Property could be distributed to restitution claimants proportional to the value of their lost property, providing a modified form of natural restoration.”  

Same source.

Donald Tusk promised in 2008 that he would bring in a 'Re-Privatisation Act.

This is how it will work, though nothing has happened, yet. (2017.)

"Former owners will not receive 100% of the value of property, but between 20-25%, depending on whether they choose cash payments or treasury bonds.
The costs of reconstruction and renewal of the property borne by the state, as well as debts encumbering the property before it was seized by the state, will be taken into consideration while assessing the value.
In-kind restitution will not be allowed.
All former owners, their spouses or first line descendants will be given a one-year deadline to submit their claims and, following that term, all claims not submitted will extinguish by operation of law. It will no longer be possible to trade in claims to receive compensation for the property that has been nationalized in breach of law.
The law will cover all reprivatization claims in the entire country, not just in Warsaw. This is intended to close this chapter in the country’s history."

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/material-new-developments-reprivatization-property-warsaw

As of 2017, no payment source or mechanism has been decribed or adopted by the Polish Gov.

You stated that there was a law from the 1990s on that accelerated the process of restitution and, no longer needs court hearings. 

You're right that there is a law, but it isn't actually happening except in a tiny number of cases where the owner of the property can afford to go through the Civil Court and has clear documentary title to their former property.

I have found nothing that says this can be done without court hearings. I would be grateful if you have evidence, you give me a link to it.

I fear that because the proposed 20-25% restitution would cost $20 billion, it will be delayed and delayed by a Gov that wants to spend the billions on other projects.

adwil

From: adwil

10/27/19

BerrySteph said:

What you're defending is specifically forbidden by the laws that Israel begged to be subject to in 1949.

Please provide further details.

adwil

From: adwil

10/27/19

It should be simply a matter of law. The Bedouin own the property or they don't. They have rights guaranteeing their property under Israeli law or they don't. 

bml00

From: bml00

10/27/19

They are NOMADS they are TRAVELLERS they move seasonally to greener pastures , they go where no others have gone before and they own their animals , their weapons , their skills and knowledge what they don't own is the land they plonk their arses on as and when they so feel like it .

Berry is looking at too much Omar Shariff and it has gone to his bonce

BM

adwil

From: adwil

10/27/19

bml00 said:

Berry is looking at too much Omar Shariff and it has gone to his bonce

It's just another opportunity to 'bash' Israel. He ignores the fact that property laws exist in the UK and unless the alleged owner applies for Squatters' rights and goes through a long drawn out process (12 year +), property rights without previous title are not possible.

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

10/27/19

adwil said:

I have found nothing that says this can be done without court hearings. I would be grateful if you have evidence, you give me a link to it.

Do you foul up arguments like this deliberately, or is it your notoriously unreliable friends who are doing it?

As the Ministry of Foreign Affairs insists: “Most of the real estate nationalized between 1944 and 1962 underwent material and legal transformations which rule out its restitution in kind to former owners.”

Your information (all of it as best I can see) refers to property taken by the communists without regard to faith. Nothing to do with the Nazis or the Holocaust.

While your sources are either invitations to lawyers to jump in - or outride lying fraud “Poland is the only major country in the former Soviet bloc that, in the 19 years since the fall of Communism has not taken any measures to help former property owners or heirs recover property stolen since 1939 within its own borders.”

Actually, my main-stream sources - which you've seen before - seem to be deliberately muddying the water too.

Feb.13, 2012 - WARSAW - The Polish government's decision to make the courts responsible for determining the restitution of communal Jewish property has sparked harsh criticism from Poland's Jewish community. The change, Jewish community leaders say, will slow down and complicate the process of adjudicating the estimated 3,000 outstanding claims.

... Since 1997, the restitution process has been governed by public committees in which the government worked together with the Jewish community to efficiently return nearly 2,000 assets, some quite valuable, that had been seized by either the Nazis or the Communists. http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/poland-s-jews-slam-decision-to-place-restitution-claims-in-hands-of-courts-1.412542

This man was granted his property - but for 6 or 9 years blackmailed the Catholic Church until they agreed to conditions on its subsequent use before accepting what sounds like quite generous compensation, he is thought to have got $1 million.

May 28, 2006 ... A breakthrough came in 1999, on a visit by John Paul. ... In 2000, they secured title to the building. That year, Ron Balamuth was granted a personal audience with John Paul in Rome, during which the pope reminisced about his childhood home and neighbors.

... Afterward, Ron Balamuth said, he approached Polish church officials with an offer to sell back the building, on the condition that the papal museum be preserved and that it also include a memorial to Jews who perished during the Holocaust. The church balked at the offer, and negotiations stalled for several years.

Last year, however, church officials showed renewed interest after Balamuth came close to selling to another buyer. In March, a Polish businessman bought the house on behalf of the church, agreeing to the stipulation that the property honor both John Paul and the Jews of Wadowice. "This family home of our greatest Pole belongs to Poland and all its countrymen," the businessman, Ryszard Krauze, said in a statement after the sale was finalized.Terms of the sale were not disclosed, but Balamuth said he was pleased with the outcome. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/27/AR2006052700891_2.html

What I'm getting from re-reading that WHICH I'VE POSTED YOU BEFORE is that Polish Jews are getting very privileged treatment, restitution of property seized by the Communists, as ordinary Poles are unable to get.

Elsewhere I noticed that big land-owners - if Catholic - were excluded entirely by the Polish system.

On topic of the disgusting behaviour of Israeli groups visiting Auschwitz, it seems as if the Zionists are doing everything to incited antisemitism in the Polish people.

But then, that's what you and BM practise assiduously, isn't it? Incite antisemitism.

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

10/27/19

bml00 said:

the Bedouin own nothing they go where they want , crap where they want , leave garbage where they want and then move on.

How do you feel about your Forum being used to parade racist disdain towards the victims of Israel's faith-discriminating violence and theft?

adwil

From: adwil

10/27/19

BerrySteph said:

Your information (all of it as best I can see) refers to property taken by the communists without regard to faith. Nothing to do with the Nazis or the Holocaust.

Read the sources. They make it clear that they include WW2 and the Holocaust as well as later communist expropriations.

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

10/27/19

adwil said:

It's just another opportunity to 'bash' Israel. He ignores the fact that property laws exist in the UK and unless the alleged owner applies for Squatters' rights and goes through a long drawn out process (12 year +), property rights without previous title are not possible.

You're just an evil person. We know that the area around Beersheba was cultivated in 1948 because it shows on aerial photographs.

All the best land was stolen and the people forced onto more and more unproductive land until they were destitute.

They're now being put in concentration camps while their lands are again seized by your faith-hating and racist friends.

Why do you preach such evil?

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

10/27/19

adwil said:

It should be simply a matter of law. The Bedouin own the property or they don't. They have rights guaranteeing their property under Israeli law or they don't. 

You know the score - you know they're actual Israeli citizens and they still have no rights.

Why do you condone such evil?

http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/diplomacy-defence/105824-160311-senior-israeli-army-officer-served-with-home-demolition-order
"Demolition orders are issued against buildings and not against individuals whose identity is unknown," the response continued.

The Bedouin community of Abu Nuwar in the West Bank, near Jerusalem, February 23, 2016 AHMAD GHARABLI (AFP)

Senior Israeli army officer served with home demolition order

The incident has created a storm of controversy among Bedouin soldiers and commanders serving in the IDF

03/11/2016 - An Israeli army major will have to demolish his home in two months' time, after being served with a demolition order from the Israeli government due to the house having been built without a permit, Walla reports.

Major Habas al-Atrash, who heads up the Bedouin Trackers Unit in the IDF's Southern Command, found the order pasted on the door to his house, in the Negev, about a month ago. The demolition would leave his family without a roof over their heads.

Al-Atrash's lawyer appealed to the Beer Sheva District court for an order to temporarily delay the demolition order, according to Walla.

At the same time, around two weeks ago, a compromise was reached with the Southern District Planning and Building Committee, wherein al-Atrash would have to demolish his own home so that he will not have to pay for the Israeli authorities to do so.

Col. Nahmani (reserves), who is a lawyer, also submitted an urgent request to Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon to prevent the demolition.

If the IDF officer does not demolish his home by the deadline, the Israel Lands Administration will carry out the demolition, for which al-Atrash will bear the cost.

The incident has created a storm of controversy among Bedouin soldiers and commanders serving in the IDF, Walla says.

"The roles and tasks performed by Bedouin soldiers are incredibly important… And now these brave soldiers who sacrifice their lives for the state and the security of its citizens are having their lives made intolerable by the same state, which is demolishing their homes," Nahmani said.

According to the lawyer, the judges' hands are tied by the law and this case requires the intervention of the relevant authorities at the Ministry of Defense, Walla reports.

Nahmani is representing another Bedouin soldier who has found himself in the same situation as al-Atrash. The second soldier was also served with a demolition order after being accused of having built his home illegally, Walla says. His home is expected to be demolished by the state in the near future.

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