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Niqab, burka and veils   The U.K and Europe

Started 2/20/20 by Di (amina046); 3840 views.
bml00

From: bml00

2/29/20

berry "in order to preach a gospel of humility and gentleness"

      THESE QUOTES SHOULD BE HUNG IN MUSEUMS

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

2/29/20

RGoss99 said:

The problema with your point is that the meaning and agenda of zionists did not start in 1882, zionism has always been a goal since the diáspora

Moving to Palestine was forbidden under the "Three Oaths", a prohibition that was totally adhered to for some 1200 years.

RGoss99 said:

always been a goal since the diáspora which corresponded to persecution of Jews by Christians. 

Hardly - the diaspora is said to go back to the Romans - but that's false. There was no such ethnic cleansing (cannot have been - Judaism reached its peak of learning and wealth under the Romans). 

RGoss99 said:

You are confusing a specific political agenda, with an ancient word. For example my village had its start with the fall of Islam in Mallorca, about 1238, but our monastery is "Montesion" suggesting that "zionism" here goes back almost 800 years. 

I think you're the one who is confusing religion and land-grabbing.

RGoss99

From: RGoss99

2/29/20

True about wealh and learning and also true that the Roman ethnic cleansing was not true, but the racist thing started with the Christians about the same time as the "Return" thing. Yes, the Jews did well from the PreChristian Romans, much better then under the Egyptians, Assyrians, Persians but the part of the false myth that is true is that after Christ (around 75 a.d.)  they rebelled and lost their relative autonomy as a result. Remember that into the time of Christ they had Roman approved Jewish client kings. In Rome, the column of Trajan about 100 a.d. shows recognizeable loot from the Second Jewish temple. 

Aside: there are many false stories about conquerors ethnic cleaansing. What these usually boil down to is that the conquerors wiped out the ruleing establishment, and took over, often intermarried and settled dwn. Parallel example when the Vikings took the Isle of Man, they settled in with local wives. This shows because conqueror name places (Manx place names are Viking) but mothers teach kids to speak and the Manx language is gaelic. the same thing goes for Carthage, just because they lost the Punic Wars and the Romans symbolicly sewed salt in their fields, does not mean the Carthaginians did not end up ancesters of Tunisians today. In the case of Palestin, not only were Muslims (arabs or phoenicians) displaced but also Christians, and in some cases Jewish land owners also.

bml00

From: bml00

3/1/20

The 3 oaths as mentioned by Berry DID NOT FORBID THE JEWS TO RETURN TO ISRAEL - The rebuttal to this can be found in innumerable Talmudic discussions going back to the days of Babylon with many oral and written debates taking place on the meaning of this Midrash .

BM

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

3/1/20

bml00 said:

The 3 oaths as mentioned by Berry DID NOT FORBID THE JEWS TO RETURN TO ISRAEL - The rebuttal to this can be found in innumerable Talmudic discussions going back to the days of Babylon with many oral and written debates taking place on the meaning of this Midrash 

Your understanding of Talmudic discussions is laughably poor.

You told me that Zionism was invented in Vilnius (now the capital of Lithuania) round about 1800. You could be right.

However, you also insist that it has a religious basis and that the "Gaon of Vilna" (actually, you said he came from the West Coast of India!) was a hugely important sage - and this document, widely seen today eg at Bar Mitzvahs is proof of it.

In a series of messages that youi've now deleted you insisted that this text was 200 years old and came from the above mentioned "Goan (sic!) of Vilna"

BM --->>>> PLEASE TRANSLATE

So I told you - it looks like Greek written in a Hebrew script to me.

And I was right - its actually a portion of the Bible (Book of Jonah, 2000 years old) and absolutely nothing to do with this Lithuanian extremist and his followers who were presumably expelled from their community in Vilnius - and later expelled from Safed (and Tiberius?).

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

3/1/20

RGoss99 said:

True about wealh and learning and also true that the Roman ethnic cleansing was not true, but the racist thing started with the Christians about the same time as the "Return" thing. 

What racist thing?

Here's a credible account of what really happened between the Christians and the Jews:

"Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years" - Professor Israel Shahak

... There was however one area in which they were not allowed to remain self-contented - the area of Christian attacks against those passages in the Talmud and the talmudic literature which are specifically anti-Christian or more generally anti-Gentile.

It is important to note that this challenge developed relatively late in the history of Christian-Jewish relations - only from the 13th century on. (Before that time, the Christian authorities attacked Judaism using either Biblical or general arguments, but seemed to be quite ignorant as to the contents of the Talmud.)

The Christian campaign against the Talmud was apparently brought on by the conversion to Christianity of Jews who were well versed in the Talmud and who were in many cases attracted by the development of Christian philosophy, with its strong Aristotelian (and thus universal) character.14

It must be admitted at the outset that the Talmud and the talmudic literature - quite apart from the general anti-Gentile streak that runs through them, which will be discussed in greater detail in Chapter 5 - contain very offensive statements and precepts directed specifically against Christianity.

For example, in addition to a series of scurrilous sexual allegations against Jesus, the Talmud states that his punishment in hell is to be immersed in boiling excrement - a statement not exactly calculated to endear the Talmud to devout Christians. Or one can quote the precept according to which Jews are instructed to burn, publicly if possible, any copy of the New Testament that comes into their hands. (This is not only still in force but actually practiced today; thus on 23 March 1980 hundreds of copies of the New Testament were publicly and ceremonially burnt in Jerusalem under the auspices of Yad Le'akhim, a Jewish religious organization subs subsidized by the Israeli Ministry of Religions.)

Anyway, a powerful attack, well based in many points, against talmudic Judaism developed in Europe from the 13th century. We are not referring here to ignorant calumnies, such as the blood libel, propagated by benighted monks in small provincial cities, but to serious disputations held before the best European universities of the time and on the whole conducted as fairly as was possible under medieval circumstances.15 "Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years" http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=avh6dkSop0EC - search for "totalitarian history" or go to page 20.

Shahak is of course hated and virulently smeared as antisemitic despite being a Polish-born Holocaust survivor (Bergen-Belsen 1943 age 10), serving in an elite regiment of the IDF, and becoming a professor of chemistry at Hebrew University (1963-1990). Only in 1967 did the scales fall from his eyes.

Oops, not that I believe a word of what he says of course.

In reply toRe: msg 131
bml00

From: bml00

3/1/20

The Midrash about the 3 oaths can be found in the umpteen Talmudic debates going back to the time of the Babylonian enslavement of the Jews , its origins are in the Song of Songs and if anybody is further interested I will be more than happy to introduce them to either the Rabbinic Courts in the UK or the US or Israel where you can freely ask any question.

The sad distraction from Numb Nuts wont change the history of the 3 oaths which can be found on line in umpteen debates which historically are 2500 years old or more

BM

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

3/1/20

RGoss99 said:

the part of the false myth that is true is that after Christ (around 75 a.d.)  they rebelled and lost their relative autonomy as a result. Remember that into the time of Christ they had Roman approved Jewish client kings.   

Who rebelled? Not the scholars and priests, who were clearly wealthy and engaged in a vast theological debate producing an ultimate holy document and law book.

Those scribes and scholars could have been paid directly by Rome or maybe they were wealthy merchants retiring from Rome to California on the Med where the delightful citrus grew.

In either case the Jewish establishment were not the smallest bit threatened by Rome - only by jealous locals from the hill village where the Romans built a fort (overlooking the small "Jewish" temple nearby). That rebellion/resistance movement was seemingly more stupid than any other in history, factions burning each others grain stores.

RGoss99 said:

In Rome, the column of Trajan about 100 a.d. shows recognizeable loot from the Second Jewish temple.  

Its actually the Arch of Titan which is said to have this evidence - strangely, I cannot find any close up photography and commentary. Yes, there is a Menorah being displayed but I'm not seeing anything which makes it loot. 

RGoss99 said:

Aside: there are many false stories about conquerors ethnic cleaansing. What these usually boil down to is that the conquerors wiped out the ruleing establishment, and took over, often intermarried and settled dwn. Parallel example when the Vikings took the Isle of Man, they settled in with local wives. This shows because conqueror name places (Manx place names are Viking) but mothers teach kids to speak and the Manx language is gaelic.

In Palestine the element that was put down wasn't the ruling elite, it was the Zealots. As dangerous and unpleasant a gang as they sound.

Most of our ancestors were certainly wiped out 2000 years ago, not just in Norwich and Anglesey but throughout England.

So completely that the remnants were almost entirely unable to resist the immigration of the Angles and Saxons.

RGoss99 said:

Aside: there are many false stories about conquerors ethnic cleaansing. ...  the same thing goes for Carthage, just because they lost the Punic Wars and the Romans symbolicly sewed salt in their fields, does not mean the Carthaginians did not end up ancesters of Tunisians today.

Are the Tunisians the descendants of the Carthaginians? Those city people could have been completely wiped out and the farmers all transported to cultivate Italy.

There is no question that the Romans were capable of ethnic cleansing, carrying off slaves for their mines and other works in Italy.

In reply toRe: msg 134
bml00

From: bml00

3/1/20

SO there were no Jewish revolts during the Roman Occupation and the Jews gave the Menorah to the Romans to polish ?

Numb nuts cant find any close up photography found in 2 seconds along with perhaps 1000 or more

Decorative sculpture[edit]

The spandrels on the upper left and right of the arch contain personifications of victory as winged women. Between the spandrels is the keystone, on which there stands a female on the east side and a male on the west side.[14]

The soffit of the axial archway is deeply coffered with a relief of the apotheosis of Titus at the center. The sculptural program also includes two panel reliefs lining the passageway within the arch. Both commemorate the joint triumph celebrated by Titus and his father Vespasian in the summer of 71.

The south inner panel depicts the spoils taken from the Temple in Jerusalem. The golden candelabrum or Menorah is the main focus and is carved in deep relief.[16] Other sacred objects being carried in the triumphal procession are the Gold Trumpets, the fire pans for removing the ashes from the altar, and the Table of Shewbread.[14] These spoils were likely originally colored gold, with the background in blue.[14] In 2012 the Arch of Titus Digital Restoration Project discovered remains of yellow ochre paint on the menorah relief.
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  • Edited March 1, 2020 6:38 am  by  bml00
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