Coalition of the Confused

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Confused malcontents swilling Chardonnay while awaiting the Zombie Apocalypse.

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INDIA   Asia

Started 9/2/18 by Di (amina046); 15302 views.
Jenifer (Zarknorph)
Host

From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

11/12/19

BerrySteph said:

Is it now forbidden to mention the most important event in the entire history of mankind on earth?

You mean the one you claim never happened, or the one you claim is yet to come?

bml00

From: bml00

11/12/19

Morning Ma'am ,

Just seen it - I promise You after Christmas Normal Service will be resumed , till then and leading till then the revered crackpot seriously loses the plot

BM

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

11/12/19

Jenifer (Zarknorph) said:

You mean the one you claim never happened, or the one you claim is yet to come?

Prior to about 2012 I'd occasionally mention that it seems both credible and reasonably certain that around (or maybe "almost") six million #### died in the ####. (You will note that BM and Adwil were seeing me around and getting very angry with me much earlier than that and have never seen me in any any kind of #### Denial).

That's because I'd discovered around 2001 that the 6 million (or "nearly six million") figure was calculated without any #### or political imperative - as sort-of proves that it was honest.

The story is badly documented at the Wikipedia but Raul Hilberg's seminal work "The Destruction of European Jewry" was finally and completely finished in 1955 (7 years full-time? work since 1948) ... but nobody would publish this figure. Hannah Arendt in "Eichmann in Jerusalem" still speaks of "between four and half and six million people" in June 1964 (ie after all the evidence of the Eichmann trial).

Israel had been in existence for 7 years by then - and still, nobody wanted to know the extent of the ####, the number of dead (already, suspiciously?, mentioned in passing at Nuremberg) cannot have been known or accepted with any certainty.

How can that be when, as we all know, the #### is now taught as the most important event in the whole of human history, and the death toll number is absolutely sacrosanct?

Only a rich sponsor in 1961 (the year of the Eichmann trial) got Hilberg's masterpiece vanity-published in an unusually small type ("Hilberg was not pleased with the first edition - a vital table he pored over many weeks to get just right was botched in the cramped composition" http://www.counterpunch.org/2007/08/22/remembering-raul-hilberg/ ):

... Hilberg began his study of the #### leading to The Destruction while stationed in Munich in 1948 for the U.S. Army's War Documentation Project. He proposed the idea for the work as a PhD. dissertation and was supported in this by his doctoral advisor, Columbia University professor Franz Neumann.

While the dissertation won a prize, Columbia University Press, Princeton University Press, Oklahoma University Press, as well as Yad Vashem all declined to publish it. It was eventually published by a small publishing company.

... This was not the end of Hilberg's publishing woes

It was not translated until 1982, when Ulf Wolter of the small leftist publishers Olle & Wolter in Berlin published a German translation. For this purpose the work was enlarged by about 15%, so that Hilberg spoke of a "second edition", "solid enough for the next century". [Though the same source also claims - "Much of the page count increase of later versions is due to being published in a conventional type size" - how come the confusion?]

... Yad Vashem's scholars, including Josef Melkman and Nathan Eck, did not feel that Hilberg's characterizations of Jewish history were correct, but they also felt that by using Jewish history to explain the reaction of the Jewish community to the ####, Hilberg was suggesting that some responsibility for the extent of the destruction fell on the #### themselves, a position that they found unacceptable.

The 1961 trial of Adolph Eichman, and the subsequent publication by Hannah Arendt and Bruno Bettelheim of works that were more critical of Jewish actions during the #### than Hilberg had been, inflamed the controversy.

In 1967, Nathan Eck wrote a sharply critical review of Hilberg, Arendt and Bettelheim's claims in Yad Vashem Studies, the organization's research journal, titled "Historical Research or Slander".[5][6][7][8][1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Destruction_of_the_European_####

There is another reason to be highly suspicious - "Six Million" is a kind of mystical number, the prediction of how many #### were going to die since at least 1919 and presumably much earlier again.

For the first 22 years after the war (until 1967) there was very little interest in the #### - and it didn't really have a name until 1978, over 30 years later. So Hilberg's scholarship, and his death total were all set in stone before the hoo-ha.

Hence, I'm confident that six million is pretty much correct.

Bizarrely, while deaths from the #### seem reasonably well established, the same cannot be said of the number of Jewish deaths on (or linked to) Kristallnacht 1938.

Early reports estimated that 91 #### had been murdered.[a. Taylor, Alan (19 June 2011). "World War II: Before the War". The Atlantic.] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

That figure of 91 seems to come from Nazi sources - only very recently have we started seeing this:

Modern analysis of German scholarly sources puts the figure much higher; when deaths from post-arrest maltreatment and subsequent suicides are included, the death toll climbs into the hundreds, with Richard J. Evans estimating 638 suicide deaths.[11. "KRISTALLNACHT: DAMAGES AND DEATH". #### Denial On Trial. Emory University. 2018. Retrieved 9 September 2019.]

Shomeshing Shushpicioush Shurely?

Now, get this - Kristallnacht happened to a (mostly elderly) community that was surely very well remembered (by loads of very literate refugees) who had freshly left Germany.

And Kristallnacht happened in peace-time, so letters could freely go backwards and forwards to and from Germany, along with lists of all the missing. Or such lists found in Germany after the war.

How come the casualties of Kristallnacht wasn't known almost immediately - and/or updated within a few months?

I would post this last part separately and CC Adwil into the conversation, because I don't think he's ever seen it - but why bother?

Adwil has failed to comment on the fact that the #### Industry is now saying "those who insist that the dea
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bml00

From: bml00

11/12/19

Has a single word , paragraph or sentence anything to do with India ?

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

11/12/19

bml00 said:

Has a single word , paragraph or sentence anything to do with India ?

Dead give-away, BM.

I was challenged on #### Denial and I gave a detailed reply.

It was based on something I've been using for 7 years but going back much longer than that since its based on things I learned from a person entitled to Israeli citizenship but now barred from it.

Yes, I know you hate it when I act all principled - but its good - maybe you should try it sometime.

bml00

From: bml00

11/12/19

TG Christmas only comes once a year - Dong Ding

Jenifer (Zarknorph)
Host

From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

11/13/19

Which word? ####, #### or ####?

The amusing part about this is that the word filter I created is so predictable that any attempts to hijack become a word salad of hashtags.

I've noticed, also, that this is not baiting you as Berry originally intended.

bml00

From: bml00

11/13/19

Jenifer ,

I totally understood and agreed with your policy .

Berry is to be pitied but I am short on Christian Charity

BerrySteph

From: BerrySteph

11/13/19

You ought to remove h-o-l-o-c-a-u-s-t from that listing. Left as it is people will think you're a d-e-n-i-e-r.

Jenifer (Zarknorph)
Host

From: Jenifer (Zarknorph)

11/14/19

I only put it there to prevent you from using it to hijack every discussion you can.

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