gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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True Velocity polymer case ammo   Ammunition <20mm

Started 17/11/17 by gatnerd; 11862 views.
QuintusO

From: QuintusO

19/9/20

Thank you. Sent.

In reply toRe: msg 46
autogun

From: autogun

26/9/20

Some more info about TV ammo posted on TFB.
 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

26/9/20

One of the many, many things that has sucked about this pandemic is that it seriously delayed the commercial launch of TV's cases in partnership with Sierra. 

Pre-Covid, they were due to be released right about now. 

autogun

From: autogun

26/9/20

QuintusO said:

it really confuses the heck out of me why the projectile shape for .276 Pedersen wasn't inherited by the .30 T65 program. I honestly have no answer to this, they simply went back to the M1906 shape in 1944 for seemingly no reason and then they kind of half-assed a secant ogive in there last minute.

Might it have something to do with the limited size of safety zones at practice ranges?

As I recall, the .30-06 M1 Ball round, which had a 170 grain boat-tailed bullet, was replaced by the M2 Ball (150 grain flat-based) for two reasons: the M1 didn't work too well in the Garand, and "complaints were being received from the field about the longer range and greater danger space caused by the M1 Ball Cartridge" (quote from HWS).

So the M2 Ball was developed, which ironically was almost identical to the Model 1906 Ball cartridge (the original loading). Maybe the Army didn't want a very long range.

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

26/9/20

autogun said:

Might it have something to do with the limited size of safety zones at practice ranges?

I doubt that, honestly. The maximum range of 7.62 M59 is 1,000 yards further than .30-06 M2 Ball. If they'd wanted to limit maximum range, they would have stuck with the 140gr T104 Ball, which had a slightly shorter maximum range than M2 Ball.

autogun said:

As I recall, the .30-06 M1 Ball round, which had a 170 grain boat-tailed bullet, was replaced by the M2 Ball (150 grain flat-based) for two reasons: the M1 didn't work too well in the Garand, and "complaints were being received from the field about the longer range and greater danger space caused by the M1 Ball Cartridge" (quote from HWS).

175gr M1 Ball is the round the M1 was designed for. Where are you hearing it didn't work well in it?

 

autogun said:

So the M2 Ball was developed, which ironically was almost identical to the Model 1906 Ball cartridge (the original loading). Maybe the Army didn't want a very long range.

Then, again, why switch from 140gr FA T11 (T104) to 150gr FA T21 (T104E2)? Why switch from the tangent to secant ogive?

autogun

From: autogun

26/9/20

QuintusO said:

175gr M1 Ball is the round the M1 was designed for. Where are you hearing it didn't work well in it?

The same HWS (Hackley, Woodin and Scranton: History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition, Vol 1, page 116): 

By 1936 a few of the new M1 rifles were being tested and used by the service, and some complaints were received of malfunctions when firing the M1 ammunition.....

In March 1939, the Infantry Centre at Camp Benning, Georgia, stated that the M2 ball cartridge greatly improved the performance of the M1 rifle, except that it gave greater smoke when fired. The same month the M2 was approved for general use for all non-belt-fed weapons.....

On January 12 1940, the M2 replaced the M1 ball as standard for all Cal. .30 weapons, except aircraft machine guns and Navy issue.

I don't know what the Army were thinking of when they chose the bullet design for the T65 et seq. Did they have better ranges by then (presumably WW2 would have led to the opening of more practice ranges) in which case a long range wouldn't have been an issue?

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

26/9/20

I stand corrected. Interesting, since I've read HWS I many times and don't remember reading that. Thank you for the citation.

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

26/9/20

autogun said:

I don't know what the Army were thinking of when they chose the bullet design for the T65 et seq. Did they have better ranges by then (presumably WW2 would have led to the opening of more practice ranges) in which case a long range wouldn't have been an issue?

I'm gonna be honest I think it was "being expeditious" which is another way to say "laziness".

graylion

From: graylion

3/10/20

EmericD said:

They reverted to the Mle1906 shape for the .30 M2 excatly because the M1 had too much range, and not enough drag...

Huh???

QuintusO

From: QuintusO

3/10/20

I think that was the French slipping through a bit.

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