gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 555532 views.
stancrist

From: stancrist

22/4/22

roguetechie said:

It's not actually possible that TV's cases don't work.

???  No one said that TV's cases don't work.

roguetechie said:

It really is ok to just straight out say the army made an extremely stupid call here.

What would be stupid is to say the Army "made an extremely stupid call" without knowing the Army's reason(s) for making that call.

stancrist

From: stancrist

22/4/22

EmericD said:

Interesting to see Mr. Sal Fanelli in the video.

I corresponded with Sal Fanelli when he was at FN some years ago, but we never met and I wouldn't recognize him.

US Army to Convert M240 Machine Guns to 6.8mm | Next Generation Squad Weapons (NGSW)

On March 16, 2022 at 08:31 am EDT the United States Army released a sources sought notice for a 6.8mm conversion kit for the M240B and M240L machine guns. Th...

The Amicus Next Gen Rifle is the Most Advanced Civilian Rifle Ever Created

True Velocity Weapons is excited to announce the most advanced rifle ever created, the commercial version of the Next Generation Squad Weapons platform, the ...

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

22/4/22

There's a reason I feel pretty confident in saying that the army made a mistake.

1. We know from existing documentation that the sig belt fed is a 10 moa gun too, giving us another strong indication that what we're dealing with is a bad projectile design for some reason since it's not producing the kind of accuracy we really want in anything.

2. The sig ammo is $3 per round government cost for the GP and iirc $10+ per shot of the advap thing whatever it's called.

3. The sig "hybrid case" .277 fury commercial ammo is ALSO $3 per round currently. This means we can safely assume that the GP projectile doesn't cost significantly more than whatever match bullet they're currently using in the civvie ammo. 

4. Brass case .277 fury is SIGNIFICANTLY CHEAPER (and is also actually in stock)

5. From the 3 items above we can conclude that the sig hybrid case and propellants themselves are the primary cost generator here. A cost that there's basically zero likelihood will drop for the 2-5 years before lake city lines come online IF lake city can do it cheaper somehow!

6. There's absolutely nothing stopping TV from loading it's cases up to 85k psi.(which would generate substantially higher MV in the same bbl length because of the efficiency bump from polymer which is pretty significant at these sizes at these pressures) TV kept the loading to the pressures it did specifically to ensure m240 etc backwards compatibility not because they can't load to higher pressures.

7. The TV case actually has a safety margin if ran to 85k psi whereas the sig case is running at the edge of what brass can stand with very little if any proper safety margin.

8. WHEN SIG cases fail, they inevitably will, even if there isn't the engineering issue people think there is at the joint between steel and brass, it will never be a mild failure. Brass is basically at the plastic flow point at these pressures meaning when there's a failure you're going to weld the case into the chamber permanently.

9. The sig round has the dangerous weak point.

10. At these elevated pressures the material behaviors of the polymers TV is using are far more forgiving than brass and upon failure won't catastrophically destroy guns and potentially the shooter too.

11. Going over funding priorities for this year in the ammunition development category it's been noticed that both aeroshell research and the 50 bmg advanced tactical cartridge funding have been zeroed out. Someone in army procurement has an irrational fear of polymer.

12. The Marines don't have this fear and are charging ahead on multiple polymer ammo related projects which have already proven themselves in other applications.

When you combine these 12 individual points it points to either an institutional bias or militant stupidity, neither of which are good reasons to adopt a weapon and cartridge system that are clearly not up to snuff.

Throw in the cost per round aspect and you're suddenly looking at the one thing they evasively kept saying during the announcement ("great value") isn't even there.

So yes Stan, I feel very comfortable confident and not the least but stupid about calling the army's decision stupid because it is in fact baffling stupid.

P.s. I had more points, I stopped at 12 for the sake of brevity. Considering my penchant for stupid long posts, that should say something.

ramlaen

From: ramlaen

22/4/22

Rather than asking if SIG's rifle can be converted to TV's cartridge the question should be if TV can profuce SIG's cartridge with its polymer case technology.

stancrist

From: stancrist

22/4/22

TV makes 7.62x51, so making 6.8x51 should be no problem.  Whether it could be safely loaded to the pressure of SIG hybrid ammo is another question.

If the conventional TV case can handle the pressure, that certainly seems a better way to go than trying to adapt the SIG guns to the neckless TV ammo.

BruhMomento

From: BruhMomento

23/4/22

It'll probably end up like the xm8. they sign contracts, never field it, find issues, scrap the entire thing, go back to m4. 

as you pointed out, cost might bring the downfall of sig.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

23/4/22

roguetechie said:

or this year in the ammunition development category it's been noticed that both aeroshell research and the 50 bmg advanced tactical cartridge funding have been zeroed out.

That makes me a sad panda. I was excited for that one.

...

In terms of SIGs commercial .277 Fury price of $80 per 20:

https://www.sigsauer.com/accubond-277-sig-fury-hybrid.html

TV is selling their .308 for $70 per 20:

https://tvammostore.com/product/true-velocity-308-win-nosler-accubond/

So in fairness if we're going by commercial prices, both are quite expensive.

That said, I have little doubt that TV would be cheaper to produce in the long haul due to being polymer. 

VPMudde

From: VPMudde

23/4/22

roguetechie said:

11. Going over funding priorities for this year in the ammunition development category it's been noticed that both aeroshell research and the 50 bmg advanced tactical cartridge funding have been zeroed out. Someone in army procurement has an irrational fear of polymer.

But my sabots? They're going to be okay, right? They wouldn't defund what is basically a real-life cheat code, right?

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

23/4/22

They appear to have done just that sadly.

Im gonna be honest and say I'm not pleased at all with what we're seeing right now.

It looks to me like some extremely schizophrenic suboptimal and irrational decisions are being made.

One could argue that I somehow don't have all the information the army does, but considering the fact that usasoc is on the path right now to running as many as 6 calibers at the squad level...

Well, like I said you could argue that but I could reject it out of hand and point at some shit we all see isn't optimal, fiscally responsible, or anything else in the way of good.

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