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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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LMAO Germany adopts an AR-15   Small Arms <20mm

Started 14/9/20 by QuintusO; 115190 views.
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27/3/22

Apsyda said:

The MG5 was meant to be a sustained fire gun as a replacement for the MG3 from all physical evidence.

What physical evidence? The fact that it was not tested or specified that the gun had to be able to use the same mount interfaces as the MG3 and thus fit onto the same mounts?

Apsyda said:

That it instead is being treated as a lighter duty machine gun is due to poor casting of the receivers or other design flaws.

IF the receiver really is a casted piece, which I doubt, i would agree: this is such a massive design flaw someone should get tarred and feathered.

As far as I can tell from the information i have the MG5 was designed around the use a LMG for dismounted infantry and GPMG use as an afterthought. More or less the same way the M60 concept was. As a result both guns make very poor GPMGs.

Apsyda said:

it is quite likely that they're going to start phasing out the very old M/62s they have in service and putting the M60s in place.

I disagree. It is possible but unlikely IMHO.

Apsyda said:

to me does not represent a proper modern LMG for what limitations it has vs what it brings to the table.

The sad thing is the decision makers disagree on this and procured it anyways.
As you said several of the shortcomings allready have been obvious during initial testing. Didn't matter. No back to the drawing board. No further developement.
Seriously you can not blame the industry for delivering a piece of trash is they get paid anyways. Nobody would put real effort in if he knew that it doesn't matter.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27/3/22

stancrist said:

I don't know what you mean. The Squad Automatic Weapon can be a Light Machine Gun.

I meant LMG in the traditional sense as a full caliber weapon. While the SAW is a SCHV weapon.
If you have an IFV or armed APC close by the extra range and punch of 7,62 over 5,56 is most likely less necessary.

stancrist

From: stancrist

27/3/22

schnuersi said:

I meant LMG in the traditional sense as a full caliber weapon. While the SAW is a SCHV weapon.

Ah, okay.  It was just a little confusing because previously you said "7.62 SAW/LMG" in your earlier post (#267).

schnuersi said:

If you have an IFV or armed APC close by the extra range and punch of 7,62 over 5,56 is most likely less necessary.

Perhaps.  However, it's clear that many armies think it's better for the squad to have the extra punch of 7.62mm.

stancrist

From: stancrist

27/3/22

EmericD said:

... only 6 guys, so who is carrying the ammo to feed the 2x 7.62 mm LMG?

FWIW, this Danish M60 gunner looks like he may have 100 rounds in the gun, and 4x100 rounds in pouches.

M60e6

Quick draw m60e6 on shooting range in the dainsh army !

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27/3/22

EmericD said:

But probably a very low ammunition allocation... only 6 guys, so who is carrying the ammo to feed the 2x 7.62 mm LMG (probably inside the vehicle?)

If Stans numbers posted earlier are correct, each Dane60 is carrying 500rd (which is pretty outrageous). That would give 1000rd 7.62 per 6 man squad, which seems pretty respectable (and super heavy.)

The hard in the yard factor really goes up when we imagine multiple squads working together. 3x Danish squads totals 18 men (equivalent to 2x 9 man squads) and would have 6x LMG/3000rd of 7.62 LMG ammo + 6x AT4's + 3x 40mms and (?) ammo.... 

Compared to 18 men of any other infantry...its really a serious amount of dakka. 

EmericD

From: EmericD

27/3/22

stancrist said:

FWIW, this Danish M60 gunner looks like he may have 100 rounds in the gun, and 4x100 rounds in pouches.

Thank you.

So, a 9.3 kg LMG + 2.8 kg of ammo on the gun, and 4*2.8 kg of ammo around the waist for a total of 23.3 kg without sights and sling? They are not planning for a day-long foot patrol!

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

28/3/22

stancrist said:

This is not correct BTW.
The German Army does not issue the G36K to Panzergrenadiers. Actually I am not aware that it is issued to any troops other than SOF. The Crew of a Marder or Puma is armed with MP7.
It is currently unclear at least as far I can tell if the MG4 will remain the squad LMG, if it will be replaced by the MG5 or if it will be supplemented by the MG5.
The AT gunner is not a fixed person. The squad has one PzFst3 as squad asset. It is used at the squad leaders discression. He designates the gunner on the spot. The spare shot is usually carried by a second soldier.

stancrist

From: stancrist

29/3/22

schnuersi said:

This is not correct BTW. The German Army does not issue the G36K to Panzergrenadiers. Actually I am not aware that it is issued to any troops other than SOF. The Crew of a Marder or Puma is armed with MP7.

Are you sure crew armament has not changed to G36K?  The preceding chart shows MP7.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

29/3/22

stancrist said:

Are you sure crew armament has not changed to G36K? The preceding chart shows MP7.

Pretty sure.
I have never heard or read the G36 with short barrels are a thing in the German army. I also don't know any pictures that would show it.

I know that the German Army did not purchase any G36 with shorter barrels than the standard rifle in the past. The only exeption have been the ones for the SOF but these have been phased out and been replaced by G95k (Hk416) by now.
Since there have been no new purchases of G36 rifles since at least 2015 it is extremly unlikely that all of a sudden G36k appear in the inventory of regular units.
Should a G36 replacement finally be selected and purchased it is possible that there would be short barreled versions for vehicle crews. But I really doubt that. Since the MP7 was developed for precisely this role. Personally I do not see the need to equip AFV crews with carbines or rifles. So far the Army seems pretty happy with the MP7. I personally like it and think its a great weapon. Significantly better than the MP2 (Uzi) it replaces.

stancrist

From: stancrist

29/3/22

I couldn't find any photos of Marder/Puma vehicle crewmen with personal weapons, but did find some pics showing the infantry troop leader with a G36K.

Soldier at far right in photo below.  More pics here:  BW – System Panzergrenadier | TANK-MASTERS – Photos & Journalism | Military Photos & Journalism

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