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LMAO Germany adopts an AR-15   Small Arms <20mm

Started 14/9/20 by QuintusO; 116574 views.
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

1/6/22

autogun said:

I've visited that one too. 2 x 2 120mm, 1 x 2 57mm, several single 40 mm, and anti-submarine rockets. All of them made by Bofors.

Its a really nice museum and an intresting ship. We had a good time there.

The tw0 120 mm twins alone have more throw weight per minute than basically any modern warship.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

6-Dec

gatnerd said:

I suspect the new rifles are still a ways off...

Yes but this is nothing new and unrelated to the current funding or lack thereoff. It has gotten very quite about the whole program some time ago. There also has been no funding of the 100 billion packages allocated to this. As far as I know not to smallarms at all.
New small arms in general and rifles in particular are high on the priority list currently. The whole thing has been a political matter and was directly linked to the Secretary of defense then in office. Which has changes twiche now. Including a change in party in charge. So its mostly dead in the water.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

6-Dec

schnuersi said:

So its mostly dead in the water

The new rifles, or the $100B re-armament plans, or both?

It seems like the 'Zeitenwende' is getting off to a rocky start, at least as portrayed in English language coverage I've found.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-government-urged-to-address-ammunition-shortage/a-63979130

Thats despite a recent essay by Olaf on how Germany plans to be a guarantor of European security

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/germany/olaf-scholz-global-zeitenwende-how-avoid-new-cold-war

...

On a related note, while looking up articles on German defense allocations, I came across this (looks to me?) updated G36:

Is that the current configuration for most of the frontline infantry?

-G36 railed upper

-Zeiss/Hensholdt 4x? prism scope 

-Zeiss? red dot piggy back

-IR Laser

If so thats pretty close to the updated G36 I had thought they should have gone with vs a new rifle. 

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

6-Dec

gatnerd said:

The new rifles, or the $100B re-armament plans, or both?

Both.
Depending on how you look at it.
The 100B € are not 100B anymore. Since they are not adjusted for inflation they are even if the entire sum would be spend only ~90-85 B worth compared to February. Several projects that have been supposed to be financed by the 100B are delayed or on hold allready. So far not a Cent has been spend. We will have to wait and see how much actually becomes a reality.
BTW in the new financial plan parts of the 100B immediate funding for the military allready has been deducted from the anual budget. The plan is to safe the 100B over the next five years. So there will be no net increase in defense spending. Its just timed differently.

gatnerd said:

It seems like the 'Zeitenwende' is getting off to a rocky start, at least as portrayed in English language coverage I've found.
Thats despite a recent essay by Olaf on how Germany plans to be a guarantor of European security

Welcome to the realm of politics.
Here in Germany most people expected this to be lip service or outright BS right from the start.

gatnerd said:

Is that the current configuration for most of the frontline infantry?

The is the G36A3. As in the new "System Sturmgewehr Bundeswehr". A program to refurbish the G36 started 2020 when the replacement rifle program had to be stopped because of legal problems. Its being purchased for all infantry type troops of all branches.

Which is another nail in the coffin of the new rifle. The modernised G36 works fine and there is no immediate need. Most important the political preassure behind the program is gone.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

6-Dec

So H&K basically forced G36 refurbishment program with all the protests 

What were the main reasons Sig Sauer (new darling of US armed forces)  and HK433 failed to make the cut

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

7-Dec

schnuersi said:

The is the G36A3. As in the new "System Sturmgewehr Bundeswehr". A program to refurbish the G36 started 2020 when the replacement rifle program had to be stopped because of legal problems. Its being purchased for all infantry type troops of all branches. Which is another nail in the coffin of the new rifle. The modernised G36 works fine and there is no immediate need. Most important the political preassure behind the program is gone

Thats big news, and pretty much puts this thread to bed. A G36 upgrade will almost certainly to kill a rifle replacement for a long while if they're upgrading the whole fleet. 

Do you happen to know if they're just buying new G36's, or just swapping out the complete upper receiver? 

And have the settled on the 4X prism + RDS as the standard optic? Earlier in the thread there had been an article saying Germany was going with the ELCAN 1-4.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

7-Dec

schnuersi said:

Welcome to the realm of politics. Here in Germany most people expected this to be lip service or outright BS right from the start

Whats the general vibe in Germany these days?

Are people (not you but the average guy on the street) dismayed about the lack of $ going to the armed forces, or secretly relieved? 

Is support for Ukraine maintaining, or is there a desire for things to wrap up and go back to the way they were vis a vis Russia? Or is there recognition that they never will go back? 

...

To me, the $100B in arms had seemed like good politics. Rehab Germanys image within NATO, get some french love for boosting EU 'strategic autonomy,' get some street cred with the US for meeting the 2% goal, and all while boosting the German domestic arms market and creating jobs. 

But thats of course through the eyes of an american. "The window through which we view the world is obscured by our own reflection" so I realize Germany could have a completely different view on the matter. 

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

7-Dec

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

What were the main reasons Sig Sauer (new darling of US armed forces) and HK433 failed to make the cut

Nobody realy knows.

SIG, Rheinmetall and others withdrew befor the competition actually started. So their rifles never actually have been evaluated.
Only Haenel and HK remained in the competition and out of the HK416A8, HK433 and MK556 the last one has been anounced the winner. The requirements and how they are weighted and the exact reults are not public. So why exactly the MK556 won is not known.
HK sued Haenel for patet infringement in 2017 and won a few month ago. So the MK556 had to be disqualified. But by that point the ship had basically sailed. As mentioned in 2020 the upgrade program for the G36 materialised.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

7-Dec

gatnerd said:

A G36 upgrade will almost certainly to kill a rifle replacement for a long while if they're upgrading the whole fleet. 
Do you happen to know if they're just buying new G36's, or just swapping out the complete upper receiver? 

In the latest planing around 2020 it had not been intended to fully replace the G36 with the new rifle anyways. They just wanted to issue it to the "frontline" units intended for deployment abroad.
The G36 would get an upgrade anyways and stay in the inventory to be standard issue for all units but frontline infantry. Which to get the perspective means the vast majority of the German military would still be issued the G36 and the new rifle would be pretty niche.
Currently they upgrade the G36. They don't get an upper receiver as such but a new flat upper rail, a new front hand guard and a new stock. This also fixes the potential loss of zero trough overheating issue.

gatnerd said:

And have the settled on the 4X prism + RDS as the standard optic? Earlier in the thread there had been an article saying Germany was going with the ELCAN 1-4.

There is no standard optic as such. They now go for a "horses for courses" solution. Depending on the percieved needs of the users.
Four levels have been defined and units are categorised into them. The equipment issued depends on the level. Level one for example is the "everybody else" category. Level 4 is special operations (KSK and KSM).
This allows for more flexibility and changes in the different levels without the others. Which is a pretty new approach for the German military who come from a mindset of a mass army made up of conscripts.
IMHO it makes a lot of sense to seperate the rifle accessories from the rifle. There is conciderable more dynamic in this market. With significant advances in rather short time. Unlike with the rifles which are basically at the end of what is technological possible. The optics also are now more expensive than the actual weapons. Its just much smarter to focus on this.

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