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LMAO Germany adopts an AR-15   Small Arms <20mm

Started 14/9/20 by QuintusO; 133758 views.
In reply toRe: msg 379
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

30-Dec

Henel has been ordered by the court to destroy all its CR223 rifles and pay restitution to dealers for the guns they need to return for destruction. Further more Haenel needs to pay restitution to H&K ,H&K seems to have a scored a mayor win over Haenel , the patent they are in breach of is the ''over the beach'' water drainage ports that were patented for HK416 

https://soldat-und-technik.de/2022/12/bewaffnung/33611/gerichtsurteil-c-g-haenel-muss-cr223-zurueckfordern-und-vernichten/?fbclid=IwAR0EzyP3G4Y4_N-0PJSS2T40WlVQG1p9aMY_aWHEFj8uI6G7b1HBqFUwges

JPeelen

From: JPeelen

30-Dec

Before getting excited, we should wait for publication of the court decision text (announced for next week) and not rely on a press release. 

For example, if a car uses an injection pump that infringes a patent, the pump has to go, not the entire car. Even according to the press release, the patent is about bolt arrangements to get rid of water, not about the rifle as a whole. There is no legal basis for destroying parts that are not covered by the patent in question. 

I also do not see any legal basis for forcing anyone to return a rifle that is owned legally. Patents do not reach into the private domain. As long as it is not used for any business purposes (gewerblich in German), there is no patent infringement.         

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

30-Dec

The bizarre part of the whole saga is that the design team for HK 416 and Heanel CG223 is largely the same folks holding all these patents so just can't imagine them not being aware of the patents they patented just couple years before or not finding a way to circumvent their own patents.

As for gewerblich , does that cover the Police forces? 

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

30-Dec

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

As for gewerblich , does that cover the Police forces? 

No. Police or any public agency use is not comercial use.
Gewerblich means comercial use.

There are different rules and laws that cover this. Its complicated.

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

31-Dec

schnuersi said:

Its complicated.

this can explain almost everything German

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

3-Jan

Yes it seems it will impact ongoing deliveries to Police.

In its ruling, the Düsseldorf Higher Regional Court thus confirmed the infringement of patent EP 2 018 508 B1 held by Heckler & Koch by the breech design incorporated in the Haenel CR223. The breech system has "valve-free fluid drainage opening(s)" in the sense of the design protected by the above-mentioned patent. These openings serve to drain gases and liquids from the action and are intended to ensure the functionality and safety of the rifle after contact with liquids, in particular immersion or submersion in water. 

In addition to a ban on the manufacture and sale of the Haenel CR 223 rifle, the ruling also obliges C.G. Haenel GmbH to destroy all rifles still in its possession and to demand that its commercial customers return rifles already delivered in return for compensation. In addition, according to the ruling, Haenel must disclose to Heckler & Koch the profit made on the sale of the rifles to date, so that Heckler & Koch can assert claims for damages against Haenel in accordance with this information. 

The ruling does not allow an appeal to the Federal Supreme Court against the decision. Haenel now has only the legal remedy of a non-admission complaint to the Federal Court of Justice.

While the ruling is unlikely to have any direct impact on civilian end-users who have purchased a Haenel CR223 it could, however, cause further ripples among some state police forces that have purchased the CR223 as a mid-range weapon. The Saxony state police, for example, had ordered another 2,300 CR223 semi-automatic rifles and around 400 training sets most recently in 2020, after the first examples had already been procured in 2017, primarily for special units. 

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/pro-zone/update-on-the-heckler-and-koch-vs-haenel-patent-dispute/

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

3-Jan

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

Yes it seems it will impact ongoing deliveries to Police.

The articles say "could".
While I agree that this is likely going to be the case the reasons are different. Government agencies are not allowed to purchase goods or services if they are concidered legaly questionable. Which is the case here.
If they have to return them when they have been purchased befor knowing that the good causes legal problems or befor the legal problems emerged is another story.
Chances are though on political level the decision will be made that keeping the rifles is undesirable and new ones will be pruchased. Regardless of what exactly is written in law and the current legeslation is saying.
Same as with the G36 really. Politicians decided it had to go. So it went. HK is basically, in a really jucy case of irony, playing the same card and succeeds. In the end for HK the outcome is most likely the best imaginable. They got rid of a competitor and will deliver the new rifle to the armed forces. Which will make them more money than they would have gotten for just maintiaing the G36 fleet. Its also very likely that several other agencies will follow the armed forces and purchase variants of the G95. Win-win for HK.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

3-Jan

Lawyers earned their paycheck  from HK

But its still uncomprehensible that Haenel would have not found a way around patents given same folks developed CR/MK556 as the Hk416 and SIG MCX . But if you ever get to handle Haenel CR223 is an amazin rifle extremely well made , for me it was the ultimated in AR15 design a step beyond HK416 in many areas .

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

3-Jan

What made you like the CR223 more then the 416?

B&T imported a limited number of them to the US, might have to keep an eye out for one.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

3-Jan

“Win-win for HK.“

Yes those victory terms for the lawsuit are brutal.

I wonder if this will bankrupt Haenal? If so this would be total victory, as it would remove one of their main competitors from the market.

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