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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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LMAO Germany adopts an AR-15   Small Arms <20mm

Started 14/9/20 by QuintusO; 167418 views.
In reply toRe: msg 494
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

21-Nov

A scathing editorial on the state of German re-armament. Hopefully our german members can comment on the accuracy. The claims that Germany is short of rifles seems outlandish.

https://zeitung.faz.net/fas/politik/2023-11-19/e26b252ad4f98875f4842475d6ee98b1/?GEPC=s5

In the Bundeswehr, martial speech and military skills move in opposite directions. While Defense Minister Boris Pistorius stirs up debates about the term “war-ready” and paints new brigades and divisions on patient paper, the armed forces’ readiness continues to deteriorate.

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Pistorius is arming himself verbally. Until now it was said that the Bundeswehr had to be ready for defense. That in itself was an unachieved goal. Now the minister is using the term “war-ready” to define a military dimension for which he can neither provide the necessary money nor enough personnel and equipment. 

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Together with Chancellor Olaf Scholz, Pistorius carelessly promises NATO strong divisions that do not exist and is full-heartedly transferring a brigade to Lithuania that does not yet exist. The two percent commitment to the defense alliance is only achieved by the coalition itself with accounting tricks, billions in debt and cloudy promises for the future by declaring pensions for soldiers in the GDR People's Army, interest payments on the debt and the like as “defense expenditure”. In the actual budget, however, around 25 billion euros per year are missing to achieve the goal.

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But one thing is certain: Since the Russian attack on Ukraine and Chancellor Scholz's turnaround speech, the situation of the armed forces has not gotten any better, but has continued to deteriorate rapidly. Tanks, artillery and hundreds of other vehicles were handed over to Ukraine from already depleted battalions. For good reasons. What's bad, however, is that almost none of it has been replaced.

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Pistorius may try. But when it comes to reordering the Patriot systems, a standard product in the American defense industry, the paperwork alone takes a year and a half. Then the months-long assembly begins. Pistorius is warning the population that times will be tougher and possibly very difficult. Germany needs a Bundeswehr that “can fight, is operational and capable of perseverance.” The benchmark for this, it is stated in the minister's new defense policy guidelines, is “readiness to fight at all times”.

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This makes a mockery of the conditions and the tough everyday shortages in German barra
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schnuersi

From: schnuersi

22-Nov

gatnerd said:

A scathing editorial on the state of German re-armament. Hopefully our german members can comment on the accuracy. The claims that Germany is short of rifles seems outlandish.

Its more or less acurate. The wording is on the provocative end of the scale though.

How they cover the rifle thing is a missrepresentation. There are enough rifles. I don't know the exact number but there is no shortage.
What is true is the fact that the new rifle will be pruchased in several tranches that of in the ball park of 50.000. The issuing of the new rifles will happen over time starting with units that need them most fist. Just as has been done with the G36 back in the day.

The statement that not even every second soldier would have a rifle, besides that we talk about the new rifles, is meaningless. There currently are roughly 180.000 active German soldiers. So 50.000 rifles would be one rifle for 3,6 soldiers BUT only very few soldiers are infantry men and there are more weapons than just rifles. AFVs crews for example get issued SMGs. A lot of soldiers are not even frontline troops and rifles are not really an asset of major importance for homeland defense. Why even bring this up? The embarrasing low number of AFVs in service is much more important.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

23-Nov

schnuersi said:

Its more or less acurate. The wording is on the provocative end of the scale though. How they cover the rifle thing is a missrepresentation. There are enough rifles. I don't know the exact number but there is no shortage. What is true is the fact that the new rifle will be pruchased in several tranches that of in the ball park of 50.000. The issuing of the new rifles will happen over time starting with units that need them most fist. Just as has been done with the G36 back in the day

Thanks for your perspective on this. 

Has the Army officially OK'd the new rifle, and placed an order? Or is it still tied up in litigation?

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

23-Nov

gatnerd said:

Has the Army officially OK'd the new rifle, and placed an order?

Its not the Army but the entire armed forces.
The has been ordered and is full production. It could be the case that the first deliveries have allready happened.

farmplinker2

From: farmplinker2

24-Nov

I suppose the argument could be made that if the government is too cheap to fully equip the Army with relatively cheap rifles, expensive AFVs are even less likely to be bought. 

Though Ukraine would argue for more LAAW systems for taking out vehicles less than MBTs, to take out supplies and infantry support. At least compared to replacement rifles.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

24-Nov

The army is fully equiped with rifles. That is my point.

Not every soldier is a rifleman and therefor isn't issued a rifle. Its that simple. The German armed forces don't need one rifle per soldier. They never did.

There are a couple light AT weapon systems in the procurement process right now. What numbers will be purchased and how broad they will be issued remains to be seen. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

24-Nov

“There are a couple light AT weapon systems in the procurement process right now.“

Thats interesting. Will this be as a replacement for the Pzf3? I saw there was a RGW-110 in the works.

?Ive been curious to hear how the Pzf3 has performed in Ukraine. Has there been any word?

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

25-Nov

gatnerd said:

Will this be as a replacement for the Pzf3? I saw there was a RGW-110 in the works.

Most likely.
The stocks of PzFst3 are quite low and to restart full scale production of a 30+ year old design, even with upgraded warhead, seems not wise.
The RGW-110 is promoted by Dynamit Nobel as the PzFst3 replacement... sich DN also is the manufacturer of the PzFst3 it could be read as "if you want more PzFst3 we will give you RGW-110". The adoption of RGW-110 actually would make sense since its a family with the other light AT and support weapons introduced into service in the last decades. There is parts and training comonality etc. The RGW-110 basically is a modernised PzFst3. Its the member of the (highly successfull) RGW familiy that fires a 110 mm warhead. The same caliber and weight as the PzFst3 does.
... having said that, since adopting the RGW-110 is a sensible and the most effective option, its allmost a given that there will be significant hesitation and opposition to do it in the procurement chain. They most likely will spend years to find a ineffective and moronic solution but this will be THEIR solution.

gatnerd said:

?Ive been curious to hear how the Pzf3 has performed in Ukraine. Has there been any word?

There have been some information trickeling down. Allthough what I know is inofficial and anecdotal. Apparently the UA troops that have been issued and used PzFst3 have some colourfull nicknames for it. They are all more or less in the direction of "pocket nuke". With more or less profanity and differing details depending on locale.
Even the old ones without tandem warhead seem to be pretty effective. Their raw power makes flanking and rear shots against even the modern RU MBT models pretty effective. The tandem warhead improves this further.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

25-Nov

schnuersi said:

There have been some information trickeling down. Allthough what I know is inofficial and anecdotal. Apparently the UA troops that have been issued and used PzFst3 have some colourfull nicknames for it. They are all more or less in the direction of "pocket nuke". With more or less profanity and differing details depending on locale.

Thats awesome, glad to hear that.

At least going by published specs, I think the Pzf3 is the most powerful unguided AT weapon on the market?

Given the prevalence of ERA + need to supplement ATGMS with more affordable systems, hopefully whatever replaces the 3 is equally or more powerful. 

If not the RGW-110, what else would be in consideration? There don't seem to be that many promising modern unguided rocket launchers on the market that would be viable against tanks. 

Perhaps the MDBA Enforcer? Although this seems more like a NLAW / Spike-SR equivalent then a Pzf3 replacement.

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/mbda-germany-enforcer-lightweight-missile-is-ready-for-production-and-to-generate-new-variants

farmplinker2

From: farmplinker2

26-Nov

Said in the article current version isn't AT, just light armored vehicles. Still, 2 km against IFVs, supply trucks, airfields, and bunkers is a pretty handy capability.

Still need to see the price of this and the proposed AT variant vs. NLAW.

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