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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons, particularly in larger calibres (12.7+mm).

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50 cal MG with multi-lug rotating bolt mechanism   General Military Discussion

Started 21-Sep by tidusyuki; 2009 views.
tidusyuki

From: tidusyuki

21-Sep

Is there a reason why it never been implemented in an open bolt 50 cal machine gun design?

based on limited google result, so far i found only Kord and CIS50 use rotating bolt mechanism. Though i can't say for sure wether they uses multi-lug bolt or not because i don't know how the bolt looks like yet on both guns.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

21-Sep

The Dover devil was a 3 lug triangular pattern which has many advantages, possibly especially for large caliber guns.

The biggest reason we don't see it more is, put bluntly, most of the Free world is still pretty shockingly committed to using a 50 bmg design that's a century old. (Aka before rotating multilug bolts had established themselves as one of the better ways to do things)

Most if not all of China's 12.7x108 guns for their own military are also multilug rotating belt as well to include some of their newest ultralight infantry HMG's in development now.

There's most definitely not an issue with doing large caliber guns that way, we in the west have basically just stopped actually Fielding new designs in this class for the best part of a century.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

21-Sep

JMB knew what he was doing when he designed the M2HB. The only real update to it was having a barrel that could be replaced without having to headspace it. And that was only because of the crappiness of machining in the "good old days".

tidusyuki

From: tidusyuki

22-Sep

Yep, knew it was one of the reason. The army have been trying to replace the M2 so many times yet they still end up with only doing upgrades for the Ma Deuce. Wonder why the Dover Devil failed.

Not much info about the chinese lightweight MG yet. i think it uses some sort of direct gas and recoil operation hybrid.

tidusyuki

From: tidusyuki

22-Sep

It's just a simple case of "if it's not broken don't fix it".

Guess it also has something to do with how there's a lot of unused replacement parts for it lying around since WW2 maybe.

autogun

From: autogun

22-Sep

I think that the M2HB has survived because: 

1. It functions well enough to be not worth the cost of changing for reliability reasons, and:

2. The performance of the gun and ammo is good enough to be not worth the cost of changing for performance reasons.

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

22-Sep

Kord has multi-lug rotary bol; i do not have pic of the bolt handy, but here's an image of its barrel breech area..


and here's the CIS 50 bolt

  • Edited 22 September 2020 9:17  by  mpopenker
jxexqx

From: jxexqx

22-Sep

Apart from lighter weight, what features could a newer gun possess? Higher rate of fire? Dual feed? Greater reliability or ease of maintenance? 

Lighter weight is no advantage for what is almost always a vehicle mounted weapon

Higher rate of fire is unnecessary

Dual feed is redundant when you have no need to choose between AP and HE.

The M2 is reliable enough so why change it?

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

22-Sep

Yeah that kinda worked when our adversaries weren't pumping out 18.5 kg 12.7x108 guns like they're going out of style that can be fired off the bipod and etc.

Especially when "our response" is paying FN to "lightweight" qcb m2's using the same strategy that worked oh so we'll for the m240L and mk48...

The m2 is a perfect example of taking if it ain't broke don't fix it way too far.

Sure the m2 was great for a majority of it's time in service but the sheer idiocy of lightweighting, and thus quadrupling or more the cost to build of designs that have been able to get the senior discount at McDonald's before the lightweighting programs even start is the height of stupidity.

The erroneous and emotionally manipulative arguments you get from people who are against replacing these literally geriatric designs play right into the hands of people who are happy to make obscene amounts punching out shit that doesn't really fit our needs anymore are just plain ridiculous.

Yet people make frankly disingenuous arguments that attempt to make it seem like moving on from designs that are far past their prime is disrespectful play into the hands of those who thrive on mediocrity and high profit margins. Oh, and they don't give a single fuck if they're actually damaging our ability to be competitive in modern combat as long as they get paid.

And people who care more about nostalgia than Actually giving people the tools they need to do their job safely fall for it every time.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

22-Sep

It definitely wasn't on economic grounds since at the Time the DOD was paying $10,000 each for m2's while gd quoted about a $2000 per gun price in initial production runs

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