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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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XM-25 here we go again...   Army Guns 20+mm

Started 9/11/20 by autogun; 15076 views.
Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

10/11/20

I love the idea, but M72s are something like $1,500-2,000 per shot. That will prevent adoption of your idea, until it becomes necessary.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

10/11/20

Farmplinker said:

I love the idea, but M72s are something like $1,500-2,000 per shot. That will prevent adoption of your idea, until it becomes necessary

Well, the Army and Marines are both ordering upgraded M72's already:

https://www.marines.mil/News/News-Display/Article/2299100/marine-corps-releases-solicitation-for-rocket-system/

And they used a number of them in Iraq and Afghanistan; not to mention using $90k Hellfires for individual men and Javelins as anti building weapons etc. 

So I think the price is probably not too high, especially since they're only being fired in combat, and the overall lethality to price ratio is favorable. 

I think a bigger hurdle is institutional -convincing them to ditch grenade launchers for rocket launchers. And then re-jiggering the squad / tactics to make it work. 

Red7272

From: Red7272

10/11/20

Farmplinker said:

I love the idea, but M72s are something like $1,500-2,000 per shot. That will prevent adoption of your idea, until it becomes necessary.

Assuming they are only $2,000 then what would be the issue? 30 rounds of 40 mm grenade ammo won't be much cheaper.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

10/11/20

I suspect the hope is the fire team will use 3 or 4 grenades for under a $1,000. It probably won't happen, but the Army will try.

Red7272

From: Red7272

10/11/20

Farmplinker said:

I suspect the hope is the fire team will use 3 or 4 grenades for under a $1,000. It probably won't happen, but the Army will try.

You guys keep trying to attach the concept of fiscal responsibility to the US army with zero evidence that they have ever tried. Their attempts to limit the cost of munitions appears to mostly be related to the exorbitant pricing by vendors and not to limit their usage. 

The UK sent some Milan posts to the Falklands with instructions to "only fire them at important targets". The squaddies then proceeded to fire them at every suspicious rock.

stancrist

From: stancrist

11/11/20

gatnerd said:

I'm curious how much effect a little 40mm HEDP would have against a modern armored vehicle?

I know they can burn through a pretty thick chunk of steel, but how much effect do they achieve once they've burned through?

Good questions.  Unfortunately, I've never come across  that info.

Red7272

From: Red7272

11/11/20

stancrist said:

Good questions.  Unfortunately, I've never come across  that info.

A long time ago some reservists from my old job got to fire 40 rounds at a M113 hulk. It drills a neat 6 mm hole though the armour but behind armour effect seemed pretty minor. 

17thfabn

From: 17thfabn

11/11/20

Stancrist

"HEDP was opted for in order to have one ammo type that could be used against both personnel and light armored vehicles.

HE is ineffective against light armor, so grenadiers would have to carry reduced amounts of two ammo types:  HE and HEAT."

A well designed HE fragmentation is much more effective against personnel. How often are grenadiers taking pot shots at light armored vehicles vs shooting at enemy personnel? Most missions aren't defending the Fulda Gap in 1980 against hordes of Soviet tanks and BMPs.

They could carry a few HEDP for when needed. In most cases for current missions a good HE would be useful. 

Loadouts can be tailored for the current mission.

stancrist

From: stancrist

11/11/20

I fully agree.  The decision to go HEDP was a post-Vietnam War decision, when defending against invading Russian BMPs dominated planning.  I'd guess they stayed with HEDP because of institutional inertia.

However, they did elect to go with an optimized HE-fragmentation round for the XM25, and apparently intend to do likewise with the proposed new weapon system.

  • Edited 11 November 2020 22:19  by  stancrist
stancrist

From: stancrist

11/11/20

Red7272 said:

A long time ago some reservists from my old job got to fire 40 rounds at a M113 hulk. It drills a neat 6 mm hole though the armour but behind armour effect seemed pretty minor.

Yes, even with larger shaped charges like the RPG, the behind armor effect is reportedly minor, unless fuel, explosives, or personnel are in the direct path of the jet.

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