Mr. T (MrT4) said:

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If this is the incident you were discussing in Msg 997, I have to object.  It's impossible to tell what -- if any -- body armor he was wearing, or precisely where he was hit.

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: It looks to me like the man at the far right has rifle mags in his chest rig.

Could be MP7 mags. The chest rig is a non standard piece of kit. He propably bought it himself. Unlikely that there are MP7 optimised mag pouches easily available given their scarcity. So chances are he uses a chest rig with standard mag pouches and modified it to carry his MP7 ammo around.

Concur.  I originally thought the mags looked too wide to be MP7 mags.  He also did not appear to have an MP7.

However, after looking a bit more carefully, I agree that they are MP7 mags.  And in this photo the MP7 is visible.

Except some times you can't run away. One of the uses for the original PDW, the M1 carbine, was mortar troops. A mortar is way more effective than any PDW round; but you can't use it when the opposition pops up 30 meters away.

Also, peer doesn't always mean a full combined arms assault. A squad or platoon of infantry attacking a pulled over supply convoy, engineers working on infrastructure in a "safe" area, are all examples of the kind of situations where you would have to use a PDW as more than a noisemaker.

It's why I lean towards usually an M4 type weapon, but a good compact 5.7 could be used also.

LoL... That sounds like the army alright.

You know what always increases the probability of winning a gun fight regardless of hit probability?

More rounds in the same size and weight of magazine!

Having pistol rounds without stupid trajectories can also help too...

This is the flaw in Stan constantly talking about how the US army isn't looking to change calibers therefore every solution isn't viable.

The army is wrong.

We can plainly see this.

They're doubling down on wrong in an effort to avoid doing the right thing.

That makes holding the US army or other first world military procurement choices as some sort of indictment of the other options is farcical.

9x19 is obsolete, the mhs EPR bullets developed for MHS would be even more fearsome in 30 super carry or a new round developed similar to it.

Throw in shellshock cases and some of the other things we can do now that we definitely couldn't do when 9x19 was conceived and it's plain to see that you could frustratingly easily give people a much better option. 

Hell it could even be lighter, smaller, potentially cheaper, and actually reduce the amount of weight any given soldier had to dedicate to their weapon of last resort!

When I load my Glock 19 or 26 mags with liberty civil defense i can pretty literally carry 3 loaded spare mags for the weight of one loaded spare of federal HST 124 grain.

Shellshock 30 super carry would be similar in that regard.

There's also the actual shooter performance aspect of a round like super carry. Every person I've let fire my g19 and then handed them my super carry shield plus subcompact right after can push good hits from a significantly further distance with less time between shots by non trivial amounts.

Like, it's not even close...

This isn't me advocating for super carry adoption just to be clear.

This is me trying to hammer it into skulls that 9x19 is thoroughly obsolete and super carry proves it!

Stan would always complain when I talked about 7.92 vbr or 7 penna that we can't get these to test etc, but now we have super carry which very much shows that you can do everything 9x19 does and more now with far less bullet and gun.

There's no more well that's nice but these supposed benefits only exist on paper dodge anymore. 

stancrist said:

Actually, there were signs it was heading that direction. When the US Army began looking for a 7.62x51 interim battle rifle in early 2017, some people thought body armor might be an issue.

Well even if we count the pandemic years fully that would be ~6 years. Which is really a very short amount of time for this.
Concidering 2023 has just started and we had a pandemic we talk about less then five years. For a very large governmental agency. That is like me and you decinding after we slept over the topic one night.
So it really happened fast and allmost came out of no where for lots of people. Especially since it has been an allmost 180° turn.
So it would be possible for the same agency to change its opinion on 9x19 within 5 years.

stancrist said:

Since it has not yet happened, I would call that a hypothetical example, rather than realistic.

Realistic in the regard that it really could happen. Concidering allmost each and every piece of kit introduced since the end of the Cold War is delivered to UA for combat evaluation... I mean to be used to defend their home.
Hypothetical in so far as it not has happened yet. But lets wait a little and see if the Ukrainians run out of Soviet caliber small arms ammo.

stancrist said:

However, after looking a bit more carefully, I agree that they are MP7 mags.

Looks like he stuffed two mags into each pouch.

schnuersi said:

Well even if we count the pandemic years fully that would be ~6 years. Which is really a very short amount of time for this. Concidering 2023 has just started and we had a pandemic we talk about less then five years.

So it really happened fast and allmost came out of no where for lots of people. Especially since it has been an allmost 180° turn. So it would be possible for the same agency to change its opinion on 9x19 within 5 years.

Yes, it certainly could happen.  All I'm saying is that if the Army were to change its opinion on 9x19, there would be signs of dissatisfaction with the caliber well in advance of an announced decision to change. 

And so far, I have seen nothing to indicate the leadership is interested in switching to a different pistol caliber, let alone adopting and fielding a PDW in a caliber like 4.6x30 or 5.7x28, not to mention 7.5 FK BRNO.

roguetechie said:

This is the flaw in Stan constantly talking about how the US army isn't looking to change calibers therefore every solution isn't viable.

I never said that.

roguetechie said:

9x19 is obsolete

No, not really.  If 9x19 were truly obsolete, I think we would be seeing a mass migration of armies moving away from the caliber.

However unpalatable it may be to you personally, the fact is that 9x19 actually is adequate for use as a military handgun caliber.

roguetechie said:

When I load my Glock 19 or 26 mags with liberty civil defense i can pretty literally carry 3 loaded spare mags for the weight of one loaded spare of federal HST 124 grain.

LOL.  The only way that you could literally do that is if you loaded no more than five rounds of Liberty ammo into each of the three mags.

roguetechie said:

Stan would always complain when I talked about 7.92 vbr or 7 penna that we can't get these to test etc...

Not sure what you're referring to.  Link?

roguetechie said:

...now we have super carry which very much shows that you can do everything 9x19 does and more now with far less bullet and gun.

Trouble is, .30 SC doesn't do enough more than 9x19 to make the change worth the cost.

MUH THOMPSON-LAGARDE! will be the cry.

But an M17 in SC would be a good service handgun.

So an almost 33% jump in mag capacity in some cases, a vastly more efficient cartridge that's easier to shoot and easier to make hits at distance with that can also do 3a AP etc with no exotic materials or onerously expensive projectile manufacturing and has a laundry list of other advantages that just so happen to alleviate many of the most commons wants or laments about 9x19 doesn't do enough?

The only thing that proves is that the people in charge of western small arms programs don't actually know what they're doing, which is a hell of a reason to argue against something.

Did I mention that super carry is actually a really compelling smg/mp cartridge too?

Like, extremely compelling.

It doesn't take a genius to look at the super carry cartridge and things like the dagny dagger definitely not a legal workaround to give civilians access to pistol AP ammo and understand the potential there as well.

Especially when you find out that from longer barrels the 9mm dagny daggers have penetrated uhmwpe based "level 3 plates" pretty reliably in testing.

When we talk about the bullet hose tactic being questionable and not necessarily something you want to rely on, that right there is an eye opener especially since a super carry dagny dagger would be far more potent.

Potent enough to blow straight through the ballistic helmets and at least some of the ballistic armor we most frequently encounter our reference threat forces issuing/wearing.

All This is before we get cute with lightweight cases and wildly overpressure vs saami spec loads and etc. 

Combine all of this and as I said above it's far from a matter of not being worth it and much more a matter of our procurement idiocy being extremely severe.

Also 30 super carry is an almost ridiculously conservative example of what could be done pretty trivially with a new handgun cartridge if you started from a blank sheet.