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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20/12/20 by DavidPawley; 155612 views.
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

30-Jan

stancrist said:

However, after looking a bit more carefully, I agree that they are MP7 mags.

Looks like he stuffed two mags into each pouch.

stancrist

From: stancrist

30-Jan

schnuersi said:

Well even if we count the pandemic years fully that would be ~6 years. Which is really a very short amount of time for this. Concidering 2023 has just started and we had a pandemic we talk about less then five years.

So it really happened fast and allmost came out of no where for lots of people. Especially since it has been an allmost 180° turn. So it would be possible for the same agency to change its opinion on 9x19 within 5 years.

Yes, it certainly could happen.  All I'm saying is that if the Army were to change its opinion on 9x19, there would be signs of dissatisfaction with the caliber well in advance of an announced decision to change. 

And so far, I have seen nothing to indicate the leadership is interested in switching to a different pistol caliber, let alone adopting and fielding a PDW in a caliber like 4.6x30 or 5.7x28, not to mention 7.5 FK BRNO.

stancrist

From: stancrist

30-Jan

roguetechie said:

This is the flaw in Stan constantly talking about how the US army isn't looking to change calibers therefore every solution isn't viable.

I never said that.

roguetechie said:

9x19 is obsolete

No, not really.  If 9x19 were truly obsolete, I think we would be seeing a mass migration of armies moving away from the caliber.

However unpalatable it may be to you personally, the fact is that 9x19 actually is adequate for use as a military handgun caliber.

roguetechie said:

When I load my Glock 19 or 26 mags with liberty civil defense i can pretty literally carry 3 loaded spare mags for the weight of one loaded spare of federal HST 124 grain.

LOL.  The only way that you could literally do that is if you loaded no more than five rounds of Liberty ammo into each of the three mags.

roguetechie said:

Stan would always complain when I talked about 7.92 vbr or 7 penna that we can't get these to test etc...

Not sure what you're referring to.  Link?

roguetechie said:

...now we have super carry which very much shows that you can do everything 9x19 does and more now with far less bullet and gun.

Trouble is, .30 SC doesn't do enough more than 9x19 to make the change worth the cost.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

31-Jan

MUH THOMPSON-LAGARDE! will be the cry.

But an M17 in SC would be a good service handgun.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

31-Jan

So an almost 33% jump in mag capacity in some cases, a vastly more efficient cartridge that's easier to shoot and easier to make hits at distance with that can also do 3a AP etc with no exotic materials or onerously expensive projectile manufacturing and has a laundry list of other advantages that just so happen to alleviate many of the most commons wants or laments about 9x19 doesn't do enough?

The only thing that proves is that the people in charge of western small arms programs don't actually know what they're doing, which is a hell of a reason to argue against something.

Did I mention that super carry is actually a really compelling smg/mp cartridge too?

Like, extremely compelling.

It doesn't take a genius to look at the super carry cartridge and things like the dagny dagger definitely not a legal workaround to give civilians access to pistol AP ammo and understand the potential there as well.

Especially when you find out that from longer barrels the 9mm dagny daggers have penetrated uhmwpe based "level 3 plates" pretty reliably in testing.

When we talk about the bullet hose tactic being questionable and not necessarily something you want to rely on, that right there is an eye opener especially since a super carry dagny dagger would be far more potent.

Potent enough to blow straight through the ballistic helmets and at least some of the ballistic armor we most frequently encounter our reference threat forces issuing/wearing.

All This is before we get cute with lightweight cases and wildly overpressure vs saami spec loads and etc. 

Combine all of this and as I said above it's far from a matter of not being worth it and much more a matter of our procurement idiocy being extremely severe.

Also 30 super carry is an almost ridiculously conservative example of what could be done pretty trivially with a new handgun cartridge if you started from a blank sheet.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

31-Jan

There was a lot of "we need a longer range cartridge than 5.56x45" for a long time, though. 

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

31-Jan

Yeah man ... Call me funny but a decently double digit percentage capacity bump even in double stack to single feed along with the massive ballistic improvements and "growth potential" vs current factory loads seem pretty significant to me. 

Heck you could do double stack very near double feed and still have a comfortably thin grip width.

Idk though man, considering the state of military small arms procurement and development in the west currently if anything western militaries thinking such a thing isn't worth doing is a bloody well ringing endorsement at this point!

I mean they just bought a 6.7 pound unholy expensive glorified tec 9 for their psd guns 2 years ago.

And anyone who thinks the glorified tec 9 part is hyperbole, tfb did an interview with b&t people where it was outright stated that the apc9k is a "product improved" tec 9.

A hyper expensive, still using 9x19, closed bolt blowback, heavier than several unloaded m16 variants 4.5 inch barrel glorified tec 9 with a qd suppressor mount...

Yeah, feeling pretty comfortable with my opinion diverging with western small arms procurement officials here.

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

31-Jan

As a child of the 80s, I would buy an improved Tec-9. Just not at B&T prices.

I suspect what holds back our 30SC service pistol is 1. "Hey, it's 9mm recoil and energy, so why change"? 2. "Who cares about pistol capacity"? 3. An attitude that any big improvement in military handguns isn't worth the effort.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

31-Jan

Farmplinker said:

I suspect what holds back our 30SC service pistol is

Well what we really need - and what 30SC needs if it is to survive - is a service size pistol that makes the public say 'Wowza! Gotta get me some of that!' 

The initial guns launched in the caliber are uninspiring. 

My hope is S&W will adapt its new S&W MP5.7 to 30SC, as the case diameters are similar as is the SAAMI pressure. 22rd 5.7 should be ~21rd .30sc.

stancrist

From: stancrist

31-Jan

Farmplinker said:

I suspect what holds back our 30SC service pistol is 1. "Hey, it's 9mm recoil and energy, so why change"? 2. "Who cares about pistol capacity"? 3. An attitude that any big improvement in military handguns isn't worth the effort.

I think you summed it up very well, except I don't see where 30SC can be considered a "big" improvement in military handguns.

In regard to item 2, the military does care about pistol ammo capacity.  But 30SC offers a mere 20% increase in capacity vs 9mm.

A 20% increase in mag capacity is negligible.*  That would mean 20 rounds of 30SC versus 17 rounds of 9mm for the M17 pistol.

If such a small jump in mag capacity is desired, it would be much easier and far more cost effective to just issue the 21-rd mags.

*20%?  LOL.  When the Army switched to 9mm half a century ago, magazine capacity of the service pistol increased by 114%!!!

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