stancrist said:

It is not an argument. It is an observation.

So you are saying its meaningless for the sake of discussion?

EmericD said:

Absurd, maybe, but anyone carrying a FAMAS is also carrying a large "hey, I'm related to the french government!" tag, and SF (and the guys that give them orders) generally don't like this kind of publicity.

It shouldn't matter if their rifle says, "Hey, I'm related to the French government."

Unless they are doing something they know they should not be doing, in which case they ought to behave themselves instead of buying new rifles...  

Although I guess the subject is moot with the replacement of FAMAS by the HK416.

schnuersi said:

So you are saying its meaningless for the sake of discussion?

I'm saying that your "poorest possible argument imaginable" comment was meaningless, because I did not present an argument.  I made an observation of fact. 

stancrist said:

It shouldn't matter if their rifle says, "Hey, I'm related to the French government."

The SF spend nearly the last 20 years doing counter-terrorism and low intensity conflicts, so looking just like any western country operator is a bonus when dealing with the local population and avoiding terrorists to know that the last 10 guys arrived this morning are here for them.

stancrist said:

Unless they are doing something they know they should not be doing, in which case they ought to behave themselves instead of buying new rifles...  

The world is a little more complex than that.

stancrist said:

Although I guess the subject is moot with the replacement of FAMAS by the HK416.

Yes. There is a trend to replace the 5.56x45 mm with something more "effective", but "near peer" (when you need all the available gizmos to gain a tactical advantage) and HIC (when you need interoperability and a large industrial base) are requirements not easy to fulfill at the same time!

DavidPawley said:

And to what benefit? For control of the weapon, the centre of mass should be between your hands. 

Thats bio-mechanically wrong. 

The further a weight is from the shoulder, the more fatiguing it is, and more leverage it exerts against the shoulder. 

Having the weight forward of the pistol grip also minimizes the amount of weight / stability the shoulder can offer, giving most of the burden of stabilizing the rifle to the much more wobbly and fatiguable arms. 

Having a neutral or rearward weight distribution means a good % of the rifles weight ends up being supported by the friction of the stock against the shoulder. This reduces the effort needed by the shooters arms to support the rifle, and allows the rifle to be supported one handed when needed. 

The rearward balance also helps offset the forward weight of suppressors and IR Lasers/WML, which on a conventional layout can make a rifle quite front heavy and fatiguing to aim off hand.

So, the user will spend all their time with the PDW shouldered?

PDW, not rifle. CQB, self-defence, not long-range musketry. Control of the weapon when some fucker is trying to rip it out of your hands and stab you, not leisurely aiming on the range.

At any rate, I strongly oppose the suggestion that the Q Honey Badger would be improved as a PDW by being a bullpup.

https://liveqordie.com/honey-badger-sd/

DavidPawley said:

At any rate, I strongly oppose the suggestion that the Q Honey Badger would be improved as a PDW by being a bullpup

No, for a PDW / 8" barrel etc weapon there is no need to be a bullpup. Once you reach a ~26"-28" long weapon (MP5 sized) going shorter is of limited benefit.

Those examples were provided to show how one could be done if the goal was a very short integrally suppressed .300.

Agreed. I think for a full size service rifle, bullpups are the best compromise. I was very impressed by the design of the GD NGSW candidate as the IW, even aside from the TVC ammunition advantages. 

DavidPawley said:

PDW, not rifle. CQB, self-defence, not long-range musketry.

It's actually SBR, not PDW.  And CQB, not self-defence.

The question was about a bullpup for special forces.

SF is primarily about offensive action, not defensive.

YouTube

10th Special Forces Group (Airborne) CQB Training

CO, UNITED STATES09.19.2018Video by Spc. Jacob KroneSoldiers assigned to 10th Special Forces Group (Airborne) execute a close quarters combat drill on Fort C...

DavidPawley said:

Control of the weapon when some fucker is trying to rip it out of your hands and stab you...

Unless he has three or four hands, it seems rather improbable that he is trying to do both at the same time.  

And in the event of such a scenario, it looks like a bullpup would be easier to retain -- and offer less area for said fucker to grab -- than a conventional rifle.

DavidPawley said:

At any rate, I strongly oppose the suggestion that the Q Honey Badger would be improved as a PDW by being a bullpup.

As a PDW, I doubt that it would make a significant difference either way.

As a CQB weapon for special forces, I think it might be noticeably better.

P.S.  I think that the original question did not really belong in this thread.  

gatnerd said:

Having the weight forward of the pistol grip also minimizes the amount of weight / stability the shoulder can offer, giving most of the burden of stabilizing the rifle to the much more wobbly and fatiguable arms.  Having a neutral or rearward weight distribution means a good % of the rifles weight ends up being supported by the friction of the stock against the shoulder. This reduces the effort needed by the shooters arms to support the rifle, and allows the rifle to be supported one handed when needed. 

Just to add a point, a "front heavy" rifle have a higher moment of inertia than a "rear heavy" (bullpup) rifle, so if you need more effort to swing the rifle and switch from a target to another, a front heavy rifle will be more stable when firing full-auto.