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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20-Dec by DavidPawley; 31528 views.
graylion

From: graylion

3-Feb

stancrist said:

I don't know what your concern is with chambering, so I see no need to increase case length. As for seating the bullet farther forward, the photo of the Chinese subsonic load was just to show 7.62x25 with a spitzer bullet, not to advocate its long projectile. For maximum propellant volume in a 7.62x25 PDW round, I would suggest a shorter, flat-base bullet similar to below.

Simple. If we increase pressure then I would want to make sure that it cannot be chambered in an old gun. See .460 Rowland.

stancrist

From: stancrist

3-Feb

graylion said:

If we increase pressure then I would want to make sure that it cannot be chambered in an old gun.

What armies still have old 7.62x25 guns in service?

graylion

From: graylion

3-Feb

more civilian market. also, it doesn't make a huge amount of difference and saves the odd civilian casualty, so why not?

stancrist

From: stancrist

3-Feb

Meh.  My view is that if civilians are dumb enough to shoot your super high-pressure ammo in old guns, any casualty they suffer is just Darwin at work.   ;^)

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

3-Feb

Or just chamber your PDW in 9x23 Winchester.

17thfabn

From: 17thfabn

3-Feb

"nincomp

I think that the concern is that civilians would try to chamber the new rounds in old 7.62x25 firearms....

I wonder if Max or some other knowledgeable person could explain why the Soviet Union moved away from this round."

I'm no expert. My understanding was the 7.62 x 25 was a fairly powerful for a side arm. Hence it required a strong hand gun action to use it. The 9x18 being a much milder cartridge didn't need as beefy an action to contain it.

Hand guns are probably the least important weapon on the battlefield after bayonets. Switching to 9x18 allowed the Soviets to produce a simpler side arm. 

7.62 x 25 was a good round for submachine guns. With the introduction of  the AK series of weapons the USSR moved away from submachine guns.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

3-Feb

If you're not changing the specs and raising operating pressure you're not actually doing anything worth doing.

That's kinda the whole point here, no amount of rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic of convention small cartridge design is going to give you the performance we want or that cartridge and loading would already exist.

nincomp

From: nincomp

3-Feb

Good suggestion.  I did not realize that it ran at 55,00psi until you mentioned it and I looked at it more carefully.  Previously I had thought that it used 9x19 pressures.  I think that this would be a good solution for a close range PDW, with decent armor penetration if it used a relatively smaller hardened core.  It is just when the desire is for something useful at 300m or so that I see a problem.

Red7272

From: Red7272

3-Feb

graylion said:

more civilian market. also, it doesn't make a huge amount of difference and saves the odd civilian casualty, so why not?

Increase the OAL to 38 mm for a pointy bullet and incompatibility with existing mags. Will be at the limit of grip size though, so it's probably better off keeping the OAL and dropping the case to 22 mm or so and upping the pressure dramatically. 

nincomp

From: nincomp

3-Feb

roguetechie said...

If you're not changing the specs and raising operating pressure you're not actually doing anything worth doing.

I agree.

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