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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20-Dec by DavidPawley; 31534 views.
graylion

From: graylion

5-Feb

stancrist said:

Well, if we're talking about a PDW to equip non-infantry in a 6.8 NGSW future, and since NGSW is meant to defeat Level IV body armor, shouldn't the PDW also be able to punch through Level IV armor? Not out to the extended (600 meters) range of NGSW, of course, but at the shorter engagement distances likely to be encountered by rear echelon troops, say 100 meters or so.

If we can pull this off, I am very much in favour. BTW not aware of any test results for NGSW of course. If they pull it off, I'd be very surprised, given that tungsten core .338 LM could not do it. So let's gather parameters?

  1. penetrate Level IV at 100m
  2. decent wounding capability on unarmoured parts
  3. smallest possible frame and lightest weight
  4. manageable recoil and blast
  5. weapon should be able to be carried in thigh holster or cross body holster

1) to me means some kind of hard core, hardened steel maybe and a pointy penetrator

2) to me means that it should be bigger than 5.7 - also because of swept bore

3) means high pressure

4) integrated suppressor

5) pistol frame and folding stock and P90 style mag

shall we play?

graylion

From: graylion

5-Feb

gatnerd said:

Unless they've figured out some radical improvement to Tungsten AP tech, I'd be very surprised if 6.8 NGSW is defeating Level IV out to 100m, much less beyond.

Aand tungesten is impossible, since we simply do not produce enough tungesten in the West to supply a major small arms program. When the US Army evaluated Tungestn ammunition for 5.56 they reckoned that this would eat the complete Western production of tungsten.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

5-Feb

Eh it coulda sorta work:

-Stockpile as much Chinese Tungsten as we can now

-improve non-Chinese tungsten mines

-begin steady manufacture and stockpiling of tungsten ammo 'war stocks'

--> issue Tungsten ammo to frontline infantry in high risk areas (US NATO forces in Eastern Europe; Marines based in Japan and on Navy ships)

--> issue general purpose steel ammo for training and troops engaged in counterinsurgency 'lawn mowing' missions

In the event of WW3 kicking off, tungsten would run out eventually. But there would be enough for the first few months of the conflict where infantry is still alive in the conflict zone. 

graylion

From: graylion

5-Feb

gatnerd said:

Eh it coulda sorta work:

The other problem is that tungsten is easily as toxic as lead. And we really also can't afford to waste it on practice ammo.

Edit: and it looks like even that would not help, given the .338 LM tungsten test. So probably the stargate approach is the way to go. And having the capability to penetrate Level III (not IIIA) helmet. That strikes me as feasible.

  • Edited 05 February 2021 6:24  by  graylion
poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

5-Feb

I wonder why such kits don't make stock rail protrude forward and thus offer longer and ergonomic stocks

stancrist

From: stancrist

5-Feb

gatnerd said:

Well not 6.8, but pretty close.

SIG's 135gr 6.8 is quoted at 2850fps from its 13" barrel. Level IV is stopping M993 130gr at 2867fps from 40' away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH8Sls4hxoo

And Chinese Armor is stopping 250gr .338 Tungsten at 200yd... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdRFYmPmetc

Unless they've figured out some radical improvement to Tungsten AP tech, I'd be very surprised if 6.8 NGSW is defeating Level IV out to 100m, much less beyond.

Very interesting, and certainly does cast doubt on the ability of NGSW to defeat Level IV armor.

I would note, though, that 7.62 and .338 AP are not (according to my understanding) configured like 6.8 ADVAP, so 6.8 performance may differ.

stancrist

From: stancrist

5-Feb

graylion said:

stancrist said: Well, if we're talking about a PDW to equip non-infantry in a 6.8 NGSW future, and since NGSW is meant to defeat Level IV body armor, shouldn't the PDW also be able to punch through Level IV armor? Not out to the extended (600 meters) range of NGSW, of course, but at the shorter engagement distances likely to be encountered by rear echelon troops, say 100 meters or so.

If we can pull this off, I am very much in favour. BTW not aware of any test results for NGSW of course. If they pull it off, I'd be very surprised, given that tungsten core .338 LM could not do it. So let's gather parameters?

1. penetrate Level IV at 100m

2. decent wounding capability on unarmoured parts

3. smallest possible frame and lightest weight

4. manageable recoil and blast

5. weapon should be able to be carried in thigh holster or cross body holster

1) to me means some kind of hard core, hardened steel maybe and a pointy penetrator

2) to me means that it should be bigger than 5.7 - also because of swept bore

3) means high pressure

4) integrated suppressor

5) pistol frame and folding stock and P90 style mag

shall we play?

Sure.

Items 1, 2, 3, and 4 -- Concur.

Item 5 -- Holster carry would be nice to have, but is not absolutely necessary.

stancrist

From: stancrist

5-Feb

gatnerd said:

--> issue Tungsten ammo to frontline infantry in high risk areas

--> issue general purpose steel ammo for training and troops engaged in counterinsurgency missions

Maybe that's why there is a (steel) 6.8 GP round and a (tungsten) 6.8 AP round?

stancrist

From: stancrist

5-Feb

graylion said:

The other problem is that tungsten is easily as toxic as lead. And we really also can't afford to waste it on practice ammo.

The military is only concerned about heavy metal pollution of firing ranges, not combat zones.

Steel GP ammo would be used on ranges, with tungsten AP ammo reserved for the battlefield.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

5-Feb

AP tech advance mainly seems to be in the form of increasing the mass of the penetrator and/or its pusher  . On the other hand, cheap mass-produced armor (60$ Level IV plates on Alibaba ) is now a reality so understandably something you have to look at defeating 

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