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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20/12/20 by DavidPawley; 37071 views.
stancrist

From: stancrist

5-Feb

graylion said:

stancrist said: Well, if we're talking about a PDW to equip non-infantry in a 6.8 NGSW future, and since NGSW is meant to defeat Level IV body armor, shouldn't the PDW also be able to punch through Level IV armor? Not out to the extended (600 meters) range of NGSW, of course, but at the shorter engagement distances likely to be encountered by rear echelon troops, say 100 meters or so.

If we can pull this off, I am very much in favour. BTW not aware of any test results for NGSW of course. If they pull it off, I'd be very surprised, given that tungsten core .338 LM could not do it. So let's gather parameters?

1. penetrate Level IV at 100m

2. decent wounding capability on unarmoured parts

3. smallest possible frame and lightest weight

4. manageable recoil and blast

5. weapon should be able to be carried in thigh holster or cross body holster

1) to me means some kind of hard core, hardened steel maybe and a pointy penetrator

2) to me means that it should be bigger than 5.7 - also because of swept bore

3) means high pressure

4) integrated suppressor

5) pistol frame and folding stock and P90 style mag

shall we play?

Sure.

Items 1, 2, 3, and 4 -- Concur.

Item 5 -- Holster carry would be nice to have, but is not absolutely necessary.

stancrist

From: stancrist

5-Feb

gatnerd said:

--> issue Tungsten ammo to frontline infantry in high risk areas

--> issue general purpose steel ammo for training and troops engaged in counterinsurgency missions

Maybe that's why there is a (steel) 6.8 GP round and a (tungsten) 6.8 AP round?

stancrist

From: stancrist

5-Feb

graylion said:

The other problem is that tungsten is easily as toxic as lead. And we really also can't afford to waste it on practice ammo.

The military is only concerned about heavy metal pollution of firing ranges, not combat zones.

Steel GP ammo would be used on ranges, with tungsten AP ammo reserved for the battlefield.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

5-Feb

AP tech advance mainly seems to be in the form of increasing the mass of the penetrator and/or its pusher  . On the other hand, cheap mass-produced armor (60$ Level IV plates on Alibaba ) is now a reality so understandably something you have to look at defeating 

Mustrakrakis

From: Mustrakrakis

5-Feb

graylion said:

And having the capability to penetrate Level III (not IIIA) helmet. That strikes me as feasible.

If you're looking to penetrate Level III at 100m with something that fits in a holster, you're probably going to need tungsten (or something similar) in your bullets.  Steel has its limitations when combined with a short barrel and pistol-sized cartridges.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

5-Feb

Interestingly though the 5.7x28 form factor could actually do what they want.

Our friend nathaniel worked up a couple of 5.7x28 "super" loads that indicate you could actually do it out of something that size If you push the pressure up to ungodly levels and Actually design a good bullet for it.

All in all it actually seems to be quite possible.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

5-Feb

Yes you can. Nathaniel did some preliminary design studies on doing what you want using a high pressure 5.7 case and better bullet design.

It indicated that you could definitely get what you're looking for.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

5-Feb

The irony is that this isn't really true...

It's possible to pen the esapi all the way out to the stated ngsw goal of 600 meters with a shockingly small cartridge and bullet combination.

You just have to not be stupid about it.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

5-Feb

They can do it but not to anywhere near the original 600 meter required range.

This isn't the contractors faults though. No matter how hard you throw a mediocre tungsten ap round it's not going to make the bullet any better.

graylion

From: graylion

5-Feb

roguetechie said:

Our friend nathaniel worked up a couple of 5.7x28 "super" loads that indicate you could actually do it out of something that size If you push the pressure up to ungodly levels and Actually design a good bullet for it.

do you have a link?

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