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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20-Dec by DavidPawley; 31534 views.
Mustrakrakis

From: Mustrakrakis

5-Feb

graylion said:

And having the capability to penetrate Level III (not IIIA) helmet. That strikes me as feasible.

If you're looking to penetrate Level III at 100m with something that fits in a holster, you're probably going to need tungsten (or something similar) in your bullets.  Steel has its limitations when combined with a short barrel and pistol-sized cartridges.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

5-Feb

Interestingly though the 5.7x28 form factor could actually do what they want.

Our friend nathaniel worked up a couple of 5.7x28 "super" loads that indicate you could actually do it out of something that size If you push the pressure up to ungodly levels and Actually design a good bullet for it.

All in all it actually seems to be quite possible.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

5-Feb

Yes you can. Nathaniel did some preliminary design studies on doing what you want using a high pressure 5.7 case and better bullet design.

It indicated that you could definitely get what you're looking for.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

5-Feb

The irony is that this isn't really true...

It's possible to pen the esapi all the way out to the stated ngsw goal of 600 meters with a shockingly small cartridge and bullet combination.

You just have to not be stupid about it.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

5-Feb

They can do it but not to anywhere near the original 600 meter required range.

This isn't the contractors faults though. No matter how hard you throw a mediocre tungsten ap round it's not going to make the bullet any better.

graylion

From: graylion

5-Feb

roguetechie said:

Our friend nathaniel worked up a couple of 5.7x28 "super" loads that indicate you could actually do it out of something that size If you push the pressure up to ungodly levels and Actually design a good bullet for it.

do you have a link?

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

6-Feb

roguetechie said:

It's possible to pen the esapi all the way out to the stated ngsw goal of 600 meters with a shockingly small cartridge and bullet combination. You just have to not be stupid about it.

How? 

Msg 7776.221 deleted
graylion

From: graylion

6-Feb

"

From: stancrist

5-Feb

graylion said:

stancrist said: Well, if we're talking about a PDW to equip non-infantry in a 6.8 NGSW future, and since NGSW is meant to defeat Level IV body armor, shouldn't the PDW also be able to punch through Level IV armor? Not out to the extended (600 meters) range of NGSW, of course, but at the shorter engagement distances likely to be encountered by rear echelon troops, say 100 meters or so.

If we can pull this off, I am very much in favour. BTW not aware of any test results for NGSW of course. If they pull it off, I'd be very surprised, given that tungsten core .338 LM could not do it. So let's gather parameters?

1. penetrate Level IV at 100m

2. decent wounding capability on unarmoured parts

3. smallest possible frame and lightest weight

4. manageable recoil and blast

5. weapon should be able to be carried in thigh holster or cross body holster

1) to me means some kind of hard core, hardened steel maybe and a pointy penetrator

2) to me means that it should be bigger than 5.7 - also because of swept bore

3) means high pressure

4) integrated suppressor

5) pistol frame and folding stock and P90 style mag

shall we play?

Sure.

Items 1, 2, 3, and 4 -- Concur.

Item 5 -- Holster carry would be nice to have, but is not absolutely necessary."

reply function has gotten flakey, grrrr

So the Elbonian armed forces have decided to finally get rid of their AK-47s and to modernise their small arms. The decision has been taken to move to a battle rifle, and adopt whatever the USA decide on. For the vast majority of users it was decided to introduce a PDW.

There are several teams competing

  1. The Belgian Team suggests a development of the 5.7x28 with higher pressures, a tungsten core bullet (Nammo) and a polymer case (Nammo) with a yet to be decided weapon
  2. The Russian Team submits the 5.45x39 in the SLR104UR-57R
  3. Team USA1 submits the Honeybadger in .300 BLK
  4. Team USA2 submits an 8" SBR in M855A1
  5. The Elbonian Team is working on a carbine style cartridge with a similar performance to the M855A1 and a compact gun with a magazine that is not in front of the trigger.

Sound agreeable?

Edit, I (and you Stancrist?) am going to be the Elbonian Team, Roguetechie, the Belgian one? I thought this might make it easier to evaluate the different options.

  • Edited 07 February 2021 5:35  by  graylion
In reply toRe: msg 222
nincomp

From: nincomp

6-Feb

For those who are confused, Elbonia is an imaginary country from the American "Dilbert" comic strip.  

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