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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20/12/20 by DavidPawley; 37078 views.
roguetechie

From: roguetechie

5-Feb

They can do it but not to anywhere near the original 600 meter required range.

This isn't the contractors faults though. No matter how hard you throw a mediocre tungsten ap round it's not going to make the bullet any better.

graylion

From: graylion

5-Feb

roguetechie said:

Our friend nathaniel worked up a couple of 5.7x28 "super" loads that indicate you could actually do it out of something that size If you push the pressure up to ungodly levels and Actually design a good bullet for it.

do you have a link?

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

6-Feb

roguetechie said:

It's possible to pen the esapi all the way out to the stated ngsw goal of 600 meters with a shockingly small cartridge and bullet combination. You just have to not be stupid about it.

How? 

Msg 7776.221 deleted
graylion

From: graylion

6-Feb

"

From: stancrist

5-Feb

graylion said:

stancrist said: Well, if we're talking about a PDW to equip non-infantry in a 6.8 NGSW future, and since NGSW is meant to defeat Level IV body armor, shouldn't the PDW also be able to punch through Level IV armor? Not out to the extended (600 meters) range of NGSW, of course, but at the shorter engagement distances likely to be encountered by rear echelon troops, say 100 meters or so.

If we can pull this off, I am very much in favour. BTW not aware of any test results for NGSW of course. If they pull it off, I'd be very surprised, given that tungsten core .338 LM could not do it. So let's gather parameters?

1. penetrate Level IV at 100m

2. decent wounding capability on unarmoured parts

3. smallest possible frame and lightest weight

4. manageable recoil and blast

5. weapon should be able to be carried in thigh holster or cross body holster

1) to me means some kind of hard core, hardened steel maybe and a pointy penetrator

2) to me means that it should be bigger than 5.7 - also because of swept bore

3) means high pressure

4) integrated suppressor

5) pistol frame and folding stock and P90 style mag

shall we play?

Sure.

Items 1, 2, 3, and 4 -- Concur.

Item 5 -- Holster carry would be nice to have, but is not absolutely necessary."

reply function has gotten flakey, grrrr

So the Elbonian armed forces have decided to finally get rid of their AK-47s and to modernise their small arms. The decision has been taken to move to a battle rifle, and adopt whatever the USA decide on. For the vast majority of users it was decided to introduce a PDW.

There are several teams competing

  1. The Belgian Team suggests a development of the 5.7x28 with higher pressures, a tungsten core bullet (Nammo) and a polymer case (Nammo) with a yet to be decided weapon
  2. The Russian Team submits the 5.45x39 in the SLR104UR-57R
  3. Team USA1 submits the Honeybadger in .300 BLK
  4. Team USA2 submits an 8" SBR in M855A1
  5. The Elbonian Team is working on a carbine style cartridge with a similar performance to the M855A1 and a compact gun with a magazine that is not in front of the trigger.

Sound agreeable?

Edit, I (and you Stancrist?) am going to be the Elbonian Team, Roguetechie, the Belgian one? I thought this might make it easier to evaluate the different options.

  • Edited 07 February 2021 5:35  by  graylion
In reply toRe: msg 222
nincomp

From: nincomp

6-Feb

For those who are confused, Elbonia is an imaginary country from the American "Dilbert" comic strip.  

graylion

From: graylion

6-Feb

nincomp said:

For those who are confused, Elbonia is an imaginary country from the American "Dilbert" comic strip.

And some very weird small arms: https://www.forgottenweapons.com/tag/elbonia/

In reply toRe: msg 222
graylion

From: graylion

7-Feb

So the Elbonian Team starts deliberations goe that they want a solid amount of power and speed, but in a cartridge and gun that is more compact than even an SBR in .223. The cartridge will be too large for a grip magazine whatever is done, and a regular modern layout with the magazine in front of the trigger is not desired for compactness reasons, which leaves 3 options.

  1. a bullpup layout
  2. a side magazine
  3. a P90 style magazine

Option 1 has the problem that this requires a non folding stock and makes for a biggish gun like the P90

Option 2 makes the gun really awkward

Option 3 seems to be the way to go. Given that the cartridge will be more powerful than 5.7x28, the magazine capacity will have to go down. A 30 round magazine is deemed the lowest acceptable capacity. a 40mm COAL results in a 50mm wide gun, which is deemed acceptable.

Stancrist, I hope you are OK with this layout?

  • Edited 07 February 2021 6:10  by  graylion
stancrist

From: stancrist

7-Feb

Honestly, I'm not sure if I am okay with that layout.  I've handled -- and once mocked up -- a shoulder rig for the SWD M11/Nine, a compact 9mm SMG, but am a little skeptical about the feasibility of holster carry for such a bulky (50mm wide) weapon.

graylion

From: graylion

7-Feb

stancrist said:

Honestly, I'm not sure if I am okay with that layout.  I've handled -- and once mocked up -- a shoulder rig for the SWD M11/Nine, a compact 9mm SMG, but am a little skeptical about the feasibility of holster carry for such a bulky (50mm wide) weapon.

Gods that thing is huge. Once it starts selling I am sure somebody will make a thigh holster for it. Then we will see. But I more meant the Elbonia thing. Anyway, what other options? since we are developing the cartridge, we can go for a shorter COAL, but also, the bigger cartridge will make this weapon even higher. What other sensible options are there?

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