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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20/12/20 by DavidPawley; 41042 views.
Mustrakrakis

From: Mustrakrakis

22/2/21

graylion said:

Not sure why? Not a hollow point and would it be more injuring than a regular FMJ?

I'm talking about a non-discarding plastic sabot that essentially explodes in soft targets by design, as in the Dagny Dagger.  It is certainly more injuring than a regular FMJ against unarmored flesh.

Hollow points are not specifically addressed as a problem with the Hague Convention, although that is a common (but not universal) interpretation.  In the case of something like the Dagny Dagger, the complaints would be regarding "...bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body..." and "...with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the the core...".  It's simple for JAG and I to dismiss Sierra MatchKings as legal due to violating the letter of the Convention without violating the intent of it, just as it's simple for Europeans to do the same with their open-base bullets, but in a case like this, it's arguably violating the wording and is definitely violating the intent.

I'd expect complaints, but I'm not sure whether or not they'd ultimately matter.  When's the last time a country got in actual trouble for using questionable bullets?

graylion

From: graylion

23/2/21

Mustrakrakis said:

I'm talking about a non-discarding plastic sabot that essentially explodes in soft targets by design, as in the Dagny Dagger.  It is certainly more injuring than a regular FMJ against unarmored flesh.

Yes, but that is not what the bullet we are talking about looks like - and not what I'd want. 

graylion

From: graylion

23/2/21

ZailC said:

Forget the polymer layer; tungsten rod will shrug off the aluminum shell shortly after penetration begins due to acoustic mismatch between the materials. A more serious problem is stabilizing the projectile even at PDW velocities and spin rates. I won''t make the calculations for you, but it won't be aerodynamically stable beyond a few dozen meters; lousy gyroscopic moment.

Well, we are designing the gun, so we can decide on the spin rate. And how does this work for the Dagny Dagger?

In reply toRe: msg 266
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

23/2/21

With enough velocity you don't even need a super hard  rod.

300Norma Mag  and 155grain match bullet at 3800fps , punching through 10mm Hardox Extreme like its nobody business. Result was not intentional but a stupid , miscalculation that soft bullet won't damage the plategrin 

*Hardox® Extreme  nominal hardness of 60 HRC (Rockwell) and typical hardness of 650-700 HBW

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

23/2/21

That shouldn't be unexpected at all.

This said, punching high hardness steel of wearable thickness isn't terribly difficult compared to punching level 3 ceramics and etc much less esapi grade plates.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

23/2/21

Due to high hardness steel its just an abrupt transition from bullet not making any damage at all at sub  3000 fps MV even with .338 to a clean punch through at these kinds of speeds. We kinda always considered 10mm hardox targets safe from most practical calibers with soft jacketed rounds at any distance past 100m , this was shot at cca 150m and a very unusual load and bullet combo for a 300NM 

Refleks

From: Refleks

23/2/21

Similar to M193 zipping through steel that'll stop steel core M855.  Of course, UHMWPE has the opposite problem, will stop the M193 but M855 goes through like butter.
 

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

24/2/21

That was my point exactly.

YRoskam

From: YRoskam

26/2/21

Maybe not military, but Belgian Integrated Police decided to equip its regular policemen standard with suppressed weapons in .300BLK to replace its aging UZI in 9mm.
https://www.police.be/5998/fr/presse/la-police-achete-de-nouvelles-armes-pour-lutter-a-armes-egales-contre-les-criminels

taschoene

From: taschoene

26/2/21

YRoskam said:

Maybe not military, but Belgian Integrated Police decided to equip its regular policemen standard with suppressed weapons in .300BLK to replace its aging UZI in 9mm.

None of the articles I have seen mention suppressors.  Granted, no reason to buy .300 BLK without a suppressor, but I'd like to see confirmation  It makes a ton of sense for urban police operations.

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