gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3370
    MEMBERS
  • 192399
    MESSAGES
  • 9
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20/12/20 by DavidPawley; 142861 views.
stancrist

From: stancrist

15/4/22

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: Well, if you prefer to take a knife to what may be a gunfight, that's certainly your prerogative. I'd rather have a gun.

I prefer the most apropriate weapon and at three paces or less this is not a gun.

ROFL.

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: Battlefield? I said nothing about the battlefield. The pics I posted were clearly of peacetime/homeland conditions, showing how MPs will often be in very close proximity to other people.

In this case we talk about two different things. I only talk about troops in theatre. Wartime use.

I address military use in both peacetime and wartime.  To ignore peacetime use is to ignore part of reality.

schnuersi said:

When not in war and at home, as mentioned befor, MPs don't need any gun in day to day duty. Just like all other soldiers. There is simply no need.

It does not matter that you think there is no need for MPs to be armed at home.  The reality is that MPs are armed.

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: If police were not supposed to shoot, they would not be armed.

A typical police officer in Germany has less range time than a non infantry soldier. They are the very definition of unexperienced shooters. It certainly would be possible to train them to a level where issuing a hand gun would make sense. This is not the case though. Which puts the common police officer in the same bracket as non SOF and non infantry soldiers. Which means they are best served with a PDW.

That doesn't make sense.  According to you, police are not supposed to shoot, so how would they be better served with a PDW?

stancrist

From: stancrist

15/4/22

schnuersi said:

This video is hardly representative. How heavy is the this woman? She seem to be barely able to lift and aim the MP7. From the looks of it she is so small and slim that she would not pass the required fitness and body stregth tests of a military organisation. Which makes her ability of inability to handle a weapon irrelevant.

Meh.  Nincomp wondered about MP7 use by a relatively inexperienced shooter.  She seemed to be a relatively inexperienced shooter.

The only other video I found last night is this one, with a male shooter whose fire at much shorter distance looks no better than hers.

HK MP7 A1

Reviewing the HKMP7a1

I had hoped to find an MP7 video with close-up view of the target like the one below, but searched in vain.

Battle of the Submachine Guns Pt.2: Kriss Vector and M3 Grease Gun

Battle of the Submachine Guns Pt.2: M3 Grease Gun and Kriss VectorClick here to subscribe:https://bit.ly/3qPWDw2Click here to keep up with me:Facebook: https...

stancrist

From: stancrist

15/4/22

schnuersi said:

[A PDW] is not supposed to be a replacement infantry weapon. Its an emergency self defense weapon that can be carried on the person at all times and does give the user the ability to buy time and survive until a proper weapon can be braught into the fight.

Not exactly.  A PDW is an emergency self defense weapon that can be carried on the person at all times and does give the user the ability to buy time and survive when a proper weapon is not available to use in the fight.

schnuersi said:

Its about putting volume fire out for a short time at short range to either overwelm or supress.

Oh, please.  As if a guy with a SMG and 60-100 rounds of ammo is going to "overwhelm and suppress" an enemy armed with an assault rifle and 2-3 times as much ammo, let alone one armed with a belt-fed machine gun.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

15/4/22

stancrist said:

It does not matter that you think there is no need for MPs to be armed at home. The reality is that MPs are armed.

If it doesn't matter what I or we think why are we having a discussion in the first place.

stancrist said:

According to you, police are not supposed to shoot, so how would they be better served with a PDW?

Not according to me. According to the legal situation and regulations. I am not limiting the range time and allocated training munition for German police officers.
I would give them PDW and proper training.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

15/4/22

stancrist said:

Oh, please. As if a guy with a SMG and 60-100 rounds of ammo is going to "overwhelm and suppress" an enemy armed with an assault rifle and 2-3 times as much ammo, let alone one armed with a belt-fed machine gun.

Of course this is possible just as it is possible with a SMG.
In a supprise contact at short range anyone opening up in full auto will most likely cause the opponent to dive for cover. Which means he is supressed. Even if only for a short while. The time gained will be enough for the PDW user to bolt and for his mates to man their vehicles or heavy weapons.
Its not about 10 guys with PDWs in a position supressing x guys with rifles at 100 m for a significant amount of time.

This is also why 2 spare magazines are enough. Its not about participating in a prolonged firefight. Its about self defense at short ranges (< 100 m) in an emergency.

nincomp

From: nincomp

15/4/22

FWIW, the young lady in the videos is Sofilein, who has a YouTube channel on tanks, AFV's, and military history.  She is also well known for computer/console gaming,  largely military games like World of Tanks.   She is well enough known to be invited by HK (at least 3 times) to shoot various full auto weapons at their range.   She grew up as an Army Brat (her father was in Artillery) and has some experience with firearms.  Although she is lightly built, I think that she provides a reasonable example of fully automatic weapons being used by those who are unfamiliar with them.  She had muzzle climb issues, even the MP7.  

I have not had the opportunity to fire fully automatic weapons myself, but it seems that it typically takes significant training to keep them on target with a short burst.  As noted above, I have heard many state that it generally takes at least five shots for a fully trained shooter to bring shoulder-fired automatic weapons back down onto the target.  That is why I suspect that properly compensating for muzzle rise and lateral movement might be particularly important for those who do not get a lot of practice. 

To clarify, I am not suggesting that the fire from a PDW would be precise enough to drill through heavy chest armor.  Rather, that the "beaten zone" would be large enough for a reasonable chance that at least one shot would be able to penetrate an area that is not as well protected (face, arm, leg, etc).   

  • Edited 15 April 2022 16:03  by  nincomp
stancrist

From: stancrist

15/4/22

nincomp said:

I have not had the opportunity to fire fully automatic weapons myself, but it seems that it typically takes significant training to keep them on target with a short burst.  As noted above, I have heard many state that it generally takes at least five shots for a fully trained shooter to bring shoulder-fired automatic weapons back down onto the target.

If it takes five or more shots to get control, it seems to me they're talking about long bursts.  The "Battle of the SMGs" video in post #561 shows long (20-rd) bursts by trained shooters.

I have not trained on SMGs, but when I once fired 3-round bursts offhand at 25 meters, I had no difficulty getting 2-3 hits per burst with the MP5, and 1-2 hits with the compact M11/9.

stancrist

From: stancrist

15/4/22

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: Oh, please. As if a guy with a SMG and 60-100 rounds of ammo is going to "overwhelm and suppress" an enemy armed with an assault rifle and 2-3 times as much ammo, let alone one armed with a belt-fed machine gun.

Of course this is possible just as it is possible with a SMG. In a supprise contact at short range anyone opening up in full auto will most likely cause the opponent to dive for cover. Which means he is supressed. Even if only for a short while. The time gained will be enough for the PDW user to bolt and for his mates to man their vehicles or heavy weapons.

The trouble is, you're only looking at one hypothetical scenario which is favorable to your position.

Yes, if the PDW user surprises the enemy rifleman/machine gunner, he can briefly suppress them.

But, if the PDW user is surprised by the enemy, he has virtually zero chance of "overwhelming and suppressing" them.

schnuersi said:

2 spare magazines are enough. Its not about participating in a prolonged firefight. Its about self defense at short ranges (< 100 m) in an emergency.

Totally agree.

stancrist

From: stancrist

15/4/22

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: It does not matter that you think there is no need for MPs to be armed at home. The reality is that MPs are armed.

If it doesn't matter what I or we think why are we having a discussion in the first place.

Good question.  I want to discuss weapons for the situation as it actually exists, while you keep wanting to hypothesize a situation that does not exist but supports your choice of weapon.

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: According to you, police are not supposed to shoot, so how would they be better served with a PDW?

Not according to me. According to the legal situation and regulations.

Okay, allow me to rephrase.  According to the legal situation and regulations, police are not supposed to shoot, so how would they be better served with a PDW?

I don't see the logic in replacing a small, lightweight gun that they're not supposed to shoot, with a considerably bigger, heavier gun they're not suppose to shoot.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

15/4/22

stancrist said:

But, if the PDW user is surprised by the enemy, he has virtually zero chance of "overwhelming and suppressing" them.

Yes but in this scenario the weapon makes no difference.
Either the initial attack misses and the PDW user can run or it doesn't and its over.

A PDW does not allow the user to effectively participate in drawn out firefights and infantry combat.

TOP