what about the good old German stick grenade?

I give up.  What about the good old German stick grenade?

Perhaps it could be used as a club in hand-to-hand combat?

isn't it meant to be thrown farther?

stancrist said:

Perhaps it could be used as a club in hand-to-hand combat?

Yes, and we could also add a spring loaded spike to the bottom as well...

graylion said:

isn't it meant to be thrown farther?

I have no idea how far a German stick grenade can be thrown.

A bit further, but I have read a bigger payload is the main advantage. Not a lot, but some.

stancrist said:

I wonder if perhaps the "hose 'em down and hope it hits something not protected by armor" concept may have too many drawbacks.

Yes, it has drawbacks, but possibly the biggest problem with modern PDW design is being able to defeat body armor for a typical "center of mass" hit.  It is certainly reasonable to at least investigate ways to increase the likelihood of achieving a hit in a less protected area.  There are several techniques that might work and there is no harm in trying them.   One might be moving the weapon in small circles once the trigger is pulled.  That might require a compensator to eliminate muzzle climb.

Another would be to aim low and let the weapon climb.  Believe it or not, this is the technique taught to my Father in 1950 when the Army trained him to use his M1911 pistol.  He was told to aim at the enemies feet, start pulling the trigger and use muzzle climb to "walk" the shots up to vital areas.

stancrist said:

Also, it may adversely affect the morale of support troops to have weapons incapable of defeating enemy armor, while infantry does.

The troops know that what their current sidearms cannot defeat body armor.  I think it would improve morale to be taught a technique to at least give them a chance.

Over the years I have joked about the "bullet hose" technique used by P90-wielding good-guys on the TV show "Stargate".  Nevertheless, it might be worth a try.

nincomp said:

...possibly the biggest problem with modern PDW design is being able to defeat body armor for a typical "center of mass" hit.

That's what I said.  

nincomp said:

It is certainly reasonable to at least investigate ways to increase the likelihood of achieving a hit in a less protected area.  There are several techniques that might work and there is no harm in trying them.

Totally agree.  I would love to see some of the "bullet hose" advocates actually try such proposed techniques on the firing range and give us a report.

nincomp said:

One might be moving the weapon in small circles once the trigger is pulled.

Very improbable.  Waaaay too many problems with that approach.  Perhaps the biggest issue is that size of the circles depends upon range to the target.  Shooter would have to accurately estimate range, then know what diameter circle to move the muzzle.  All of that would require countless hours of practice, far more than the vast majority of PDW users would conceivably get.

nincomp said:

Another would be to aim low and let the weapon climb.

Also highly range dependent.  And depends upon significant muzzle climb, which a caliber like 5.7x28 is not supposed to have.

A much bigger problem with all of these "bullet hose" ideas is they would consume a lot of ammo, which PDW users won't carry.

nincomp said:

Believe it or not, this is the technique taught to my Father in 1950 when the Army trained him to use his M1911 pistol.  He was told to aim at the enemies feet, start pulling the trigger and use muzzle climb to "walk" the shots up to vital areas.

If your father wasn't pulling your leg, then I suspect that he may have been pranked by his instructor. 

Muzzle climb of a M1911 is too high to make this a serious method -- except for the proverbial "gunfight in a phone booth."

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FWIW, here is a 5.56 SBR "bullet hosing" a target at very short distance:  https://youtu.be/PDQ0McPWXJA?t=65

PDW is a weapon of last resort, for folks that have no clue how to use it,Main job of this sidearm is not to get in the way of other tasks for 99,99+% of the time its not needed, and when it is needed its job it is to deter and suppress the enemy for a moment or two and inspire some courage to poor sucker who is about to get killed, i wouldn't consider the AP performance to carry much weight at all .