gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3382
    MEMBERS
  • 193513
    MESSAGES
  • 1
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

PDW again   Small Arms <20mm

Started 20/12/20 by DavidPawley; 155089 views.
smg762

From: smg762

27-Jan

what about a 9mm round that can be interchanged with 9mm luger.  70k PSI and a 9mm sabot

graylion

From: graylion

27-Jan

To be quite honest I am beginning to think that the STENG CPW in 5.7 might be the ticket if one doesn't want to go down the high energy route.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST_Kinetics_CPW

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27-Jan

graylion said:

To be quite honest I am beginning to think that the STENG CPW in 5.7 might be the ticket if one doesn't want to go down the high energy route. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST_Kinetics_CPW

Or an MP7 in 5,7. The CPW and the MP7 seem to be pretty similar.

graylion

From: graylion

27-Jan

schnuersi said:

Or an MP7 in 5,7. The CPW and the MP7 seem to be pretty similar.

weights and dimensions are closer to MP9 than MP7 IMO.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27-Jan

graylion said:

weights and dimensions are closer to MP9 than MP7 IMO.

Seems hard to tell.
The CPW looks remind me of the MP7 prototypes. Its entirely possible that it would have to be beefed up to meet some requirements. Just as it happened with the MP7.
But in general I agree. If is acceptable for service this way the slower weigh and smaller size are preferable.

stancrist

From: stancrist

27-Jan

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: Mr. T's post is cynical and inaccurate.

I disagree it is spot on. This is what the PDW concept is for.

Hmm.  That is very interesting.  Mr. T said that a PDW "is a weapon...for folks that have no clue how to use it...to deter and suppress the enemy for a moment or two and inspire some courage to poor sucker who is about to get killed..."

So, you're telling me that German soldiers who are issued a PDW really have no clue how to use it, and they are just poor suckers equipped with a PDW solely to bolster their morale before they get killed?  Das ist aber schade.  I would've expected better of the German Army.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

27-Jan

 I don't know how many rounds German tankers get to fire from their PDWs per year but i suspect not many .they simply do not get enough live fire time on these arms to be really proficient.

And anyways that is beside the point,that peashooter is there to enable some suppressing fire so you and your team mates can hopefully run away from immediate danger 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27-Jan

On the other hand, a huge advantage of the MP7 and P90 is their extreme ease of use; they are closer to an airsoft gun then an AR15 in terms of ease of use. Weapons are very light, low recoil, and with a red dot fairly straightforward.

This is based on my own experience shooting them, as well as a few firearms instructors who have kept PS90s on hand for recoil sensitive / otherwise unsuitable students.

So with someone who has limited training, I’d rate these light PDWs as having the best chance for the novice shooter to actually hit anything. 
 

Given their ease of use plus ~100m or less range, the most salient aspect for success is likely having non infantry troops understand propper method of getting to cover and firing while minimizing exposure to enemy fire.

When playing airsoft and paintball, that was always the sign of a novice - sticking way too much of their body out from behind cover to shoot. My concern is a non infantry soldier might make a similar mistake in their first engagement.

  • Edited 27 January 2023 14:56  by  gatnerd
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

27-Jan

Indeed  MP9 and MP7 with hand grip magazines are likely more intuitive to use under stress than Sig MCX Rattler which is otherwise about the same size also a concussive blast  of a 5.56x45 from a very short barrel without suppressor is severe and a huge penalty if used inside a vehicle so its somewhat unsurprising that 9mm  PDW seem to be making somewhat of a comeback over more exotic 5.7 and 4.6

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27-Jan

stancrist said:

So, you're telling me that German soldiers who are issued a PDW really have no clue how to use it, and they are just poor suckers equipped with a PDW solely to bolster their morale before they get killed? Das ist aber schade. I would've expected better of the German Army.

Yes it is sort of like that. I would not say no clue at all but limited clue.

Mr.T again is spot on:

Mr.T said:

I don't know how many rounds German tankers get to fire from their PDWs per year but i suspect not many .they simply do not get enough live fire time on these arms to be really proficient.

The small arms training of AFVs and really everyone but infantry is very limited.
Back in the day of 9 mm SMGs you got most of the training during your basic tanker training. Once you qualified there was little to no range time and ammo allocation for SMG training. But we got plenty of MG ammo and range time.

The SMG back than and the PDW now is not there to win firefights. Its there to be able to return fire in a pinch. Most importnatly to allert everyone else. Uppon sudden weapons fire the SOP is man the MGs and man the vehicles. Not necessarily in that order. The SMGs as now the PDWs are kept on the person but for sentry duty if the tanks are hidden and the unit bivouacing at least one MG per tank is deployed in LMG config either in a defensive position or on a tank for close defense.
Nobody ever expected or intended to win a fight with SMGs and handguns.
Even if they would have issued rifles a tank crew doesn't become an infantry squad. Giving them a small weapon that is not interfering with the important tasks and this available when really needed and that does not encumber so mobility of the user is not compromised makes much more sense.
Suprise contact at short distance: shoot, full auto one mag load rapid aimed bursts and run. Don't try to fight their way. Get to the tank and fight your way.

BTW:
There is one thing missing on these pictures!
Handguns. It used to be two SMGs and two handguns per crew. They finally got rid of the useless handguns and issue a PDW for each crew member. That is a real improvement.

TOP