autogun

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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The Foresight War Revisited: small arms   Novel: The Foresight War

Started 16-Feb by autogun; 5345 views.
autogun

From: autogun

16-Feb

For discussion of all guns and ammunition under 20mm calibre.

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

16-Feb

1. Rethink the STEN: use double-feed magazines (i.e. from Beretta 38) and forget the swinging magazine housing - make it permanently fixed

2. try to get a working semi-automatic rifle; i.e. copy the Soviet Tokarev but make it a bit sturdier and heavier, simplify gas system and use SMLE mags

3. make more Bren guns

4. try a Bazooka instead of the PIAT

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

16-Feb

But then the Sten wouldn't be one of the cheapest transferrable smgs, Max!

OT: How much more work yet to go for your book for Ian?

Also, love your stuff in Firearms News! Hope we get more.

mpopenker

From: mpopenker

17-Feb

The book is almost done, I'm polishing off the text and waiting for some photos. Basically, it's up to guys at Headstamp publishing to get the things rolling with my book.

as for FN articles, my next piece would be the story of the AR-15 rifle in the land of AK.

autogun

From: autogun

17-Feb

mpopenker said:

1. Rethink the STEN: use double-feed magazines (i.e. from Beretta 38) and forget the swinging magazine housing - make it permanently fixed

2. try to get a working semi-automatic rifle; i.e. copy the Soviet Tokarev but make it a bit sturdier and heavier, simplify gas system and use SMLE mags

3. make more Bren guns

4. try a Bazooka instead of the PIAT

In the original TFW the main change I made to UK small arms was the adoption of the Solothurn SMG in 9 x 25 Mauser calibre; with a 12 inch barrel and a proper wooden stock to give it a realistic 150m range (related change being an M1911 in 9 x 25). I had to rethink this because I also wanted a compact version of the SMG and the Solothurn design did not permit a folding stock. I also included a .303 Bullpup rifle based on the Bren (aka Besal) but that has to go - makes no sense as the Bren action isn't suitable for a light rifle and in any case it isn't worth developing a new rifle around the old .303 cartridge.

My current thinking I outlined in an earlier post as follows:

Given that there was considerable ammunition expertise in the UK (ICI/Kynoch) but very little in automatic weapons, the plan would be to get Kynoch to develop something very like the late-1940s .270 British as specified by the Small Arms Committee, make large quantities of it, and give them to FN and ZB together with a rough sketch (EM-2) and specification of the weapons required, with a secret competition determining the outcome. The idea will be to introduce the new gun as a specialist "universal rifle" initially for the paratroops, then the Marine Commandoes, before ultimately rolling it out to the infantry. In purpose and capabilities it would be similar to the FG 42, as a kind of rifle/LMG cross, with a heavy barrel, a bipod, and possibly with open-bolt firing on full auto. Later, a carbine version with a shorter/lighter barrel would accompany it, as would a belt-fed GPMG. In the meantime the .303 No.3 and Bren would stay in production, along with something as close to the 9mm Sterling as possible.

The PIAT in the original TFW was in fact replaced by a recoilless anti-tank gun, Carl Gustav type.

tidusyuki

From: tidusyuki

17-Feb

AR15 in the land of AK would really be an interesting topic for sure. So far i only know ADAR and ORSIS ARs.

tidusyuki

From: tidusyuki

17-Feb

CARL Gustav like? Would that be Panzershreck or it's little brother Panzerfaust?

Red7272

From: Red7272

17-Feb

tidusyuki said:

CARL Gustav like? Would that be Panzershreck or it's little brother Panzerfaust?

Carl Gustav exists as an AT rifle at this time.  Given that the  Brits had an establishment for developing war rockets that would be simpler. It turns out that the British had the Projectile Development Establishment at Fort Halstead in Kent under the direction of a scientist Alwyn Crow. These are the guys who developed the various UP AA rockets and should be quite capable of developing a rocket launcher for an anti tank grenade. 

Red7272

From: Red7272

17-Feb

I'm actually with Max in that just sticking with 303 but in a new semi auto rifle would be my path. Maybe a new lighter projectile with the same BC that works in a shorter barrel to reduce recoil and improve the handling of the rifle. If you want a local design, copy the Lewis action, i's basically an AK 40 years early. 

Maybe a hot 9x19 loading as an SMG and pistol round like the post war Czech loading the SAS were fond of. And SMGs can be functional without being poop. Copy the PPS 43 and make a compact version with a shorter receiver and barrel with a fire rate controller in the butt.

autogun

From: autogun

18-Feb

Red7272 said:

I'm actually with Max in that just sticking with 303 but in a new semi auto rifle would be my path. Maybe a new lighter projectile with the same BC that works in a shorter barrel to reduce recoil and improve the handling of the rifle. If you want a local design, copy the Lewis action, i's basically an AK 40 years early. 

The problem with that is that the BA regarded the .303 cartridge as obsolescent and were keen to adopt a more modern rimless design. So IMO it doesn't really make much sense to invest all of the design and development effort required for a new self-loading rifle while retaining the old round.

Now a proposal to develop such a rifle around the original .276 Pedersen round would make a lot more sense. Kynoch made more of that ammo than any US company.

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