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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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20mm + canister against microdrones   Ammunition 20-57mm

Started 19-Mar by poliorcetes; 2094 views.
poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

19-Mar

In several European armed forces, shotgun shells such as skynet are being tested. The information I have readed about the concept is not unanimous at all.

I was wondering if canister ammunition would do a better job. For instance, instead of 40x53 M1001, a 40x51 "birdshot" which would use small steel pellets which would lose energy quickly. Or maybe even a 20x42 neopaw cartridge but with birdshot. I was wondering if there is margin for improvement compared with conventional shotgun birdshot (like the used for clay shooting), gaining some dozens of effective range but loosing energy enough quickly for being used in close proximity to people

stancrist

From: stancrist

19-Mar

poliorcetes said:

I was wondering if canister ammunition would do a better job.

Perhaps.  SKYNET Anti-Drone Shells - Do they live up to the hype? - YouTube

Refleks

From: Refleks

19-Mar

If they get close enough you can skeet shoot them, then go for it, but I honestly don't think they typically will.  The operating envelope of a sUAS is simply too great for a shotgun like solution to be effective when they can respond by simply flying higher or further out.  The smaller drones are hard to hear even at 400', and we're assuming a bad actor would be disregarding altitude regulations, so you may be hard pressed to even know it's there unless you have a dedicated person actively looking, or are using something like Aeroscope (assuming they're not operating off typical frequencies)

If you want a manportable hard kill solution to tag a hovering drone, as opposed to a jammer or a vehicle mounted approach, you really need something like AHEAD combined with a fire control system. That would allow you to time the release of your submunitions until it's at the optimum distance regardless of the drone's altitude with the FCS not firing until a hit is assured.  It could be 40mm MV based, but I suspect something with a flatter trajectory and shorter TOF like XM109 25mm would be better.

Keep in mind the natural counter to this is to make sure the drone (perhaps 700'+ slant distance away) doesn't stay in one place long enough for you to get a good firing solution, which is trivial to do via software even if such a mode is not commonplace in current commercial aircraft.  A random walk @ hover, or a slow orbit with random altitude or speed changes would confound anything short of an automated engagement, while their stabilized image would still appear rock solid to the operator.  Going after the RF vulnerabilities may yield better results, but then they'll counter with additional autonomy.  Drones are quite the blessing and curse.

  • Edited 19 March 2021 22:41  by  Refleks
In reply toRe: msg 3
Refleks

From: Refleks

19-Mar

What I suspect the standard response we might see in the future is a vehicle mounted IR or MMW radar array (perhaps like those used in active protection systems) that continuously stares at the sky in all directions, once it detects a drone it slews an EO suite to track it, engages directional jamming to try and exploit RF vulnerabilities, dazzles its optics with a laser, and finally (if applicable) slews a weapon and starts a hard kill engagement cycle.  If it uses known frequencies (such as insurgents using off the shelf commercial drones) with datalink exploits then you can probably intercept that, find the PIC and direct indirect fires onto them or at least go and take a peek in case they're operating from the local orphanage. 

  • Edited 19 March 2021 22:52  by  Refleks
Red7272

From: Red7272

20-Mar

Refleks said:

If you want a manportable hard kill solution to tag a hovering drone, as opposed to a jammer or a vehicle mounted approach, you really need something like AHEAD combined with a fire control system. That would allow you to time the release of your submunitions until it's at the optimum distance regardless of the drone's altitude with the FCS not firing until a hit is assured.  It could be 40mm MV based, but I suspect something with a flatter trajectory and shorter TOF like XM109 25mm would be better.

Microwave should work for shoulder use with a bigger microwave or a box of micro drones with warheads. Ideally the kill mechanism shouldn't be much more expensive than the drone target.

poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

20-Mar

The problem with microdrones is that they are very difficult to be tracked with the naked eye when fly low (you just have a literal couple of seconds in best scenario); when I tried to fly my racer microdrone without FPV googles it's almost impossible beyond stationary or flying near and quite slow.

But man, you can hear it from quite a distance because their motors are like a horde of giant wasps. Indeed, I think that audio trackers have a future, since noise is quite identifiable and loud.

The problem with a FCS + airburst portable solution is the human operator. He has to point the "antidrone XM25" to a precise firing solution in which the grenade is going to burst in the path of the drone. No matter how mature this FCS solution can be, the human operator will consume seconds that can be lethal.

Besides, if used in a urban / crowded environment, an air burst would be dangerous for people more or less below it, compared with a cannister cone

If a human operator is going to use a system, I think that a estochastic solution would be not only cheaper, but more effective. If the operator can shoot quickly several cannister cones, the probability of being hit by several fragments would be enough. Of course, the effective range would be quite limited, possibly not much higher than clay shooting... but then the danger range is less dangerous because that range and because it will be used pointed upwards.

AND such effective range would maintain the UAV outside of "clay shooting protection umbrella", which effectively would be a mission kill

A small automatic FCS using a neo strike gun and AB ammunition could be more effective, sure, but if it is totally automatic. Thus, not portable

Refleks

From: Refleks

20-Mar

poliorcetes said:

AND such effective range would maintain the UAV outside of "clay shooting protection umbrella", which effectively would be a mission kill


What makes you think keeping a drone outside of clay shooting range is a "mission kill"?

poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

21-Mar

I should have specify "agressive mission kill"

If a microdrone is modified or created for carrying an explosive payload, it will need to be activated at a certain distance of the objective in order to be effective. I'm talking about designs well inside the 2.5 kg cathegory: either race drones that are < 1kg, build with components, or certain cameradrones such as Xiaomi Fimi X8, a cheap but capable 700gr design

Preciselly, Yesterday such drone (or another chines clone of it) appeared in the middle of a soccer play in Spain

Athletic: Un dron cae en San Mamés en pleno Athletic-Eibar con un mensaje contra la Eurocopa en Bilbao | Marca

Athletic de Bilbao - Eibar: Un dron y poco fútbol en San Mamés | Deportes | EL PAÍS (elpais.com)

El árbitro Pizarro Gómez retira el dron que aterrizó en el césped de San Mamés

Nowadays people are outside of soccer stadia because of COVID. But COVID will end, and again people will gather. 

Off-the-shelves, that xiaomi drone is vulnerable to EW defense. But a microdrone prepared against such defense will be used sooner rather than later. And then, a kinetic response will be needed

In reply toRe: msg 8
graylion

From: graylion

24-Mar

best suggestion I have seen is a strong microwave system to fry the drone's electronics

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

24-Mar

poliorcetes said:

I was wondering if canister ammunition would do a better job. For instance, instead of 40x53 M1001, a 40x51 "birdshot" which would use small steel pellets which would lose energy quickly.

I had a similar thought awhile back.

Take the .50 BMG case, and make it a straightwall cartridge. Use a well designed 'wad' (like a better version of the Federal FliteControl) and use it fire ~700gr of BB's at 2600fps. 

It could work for both drones within ~100yd as well as being effective as an anti personnel round in urban combat. And in theory would only require a barrel change for legacy .50 BMG rounds.

Alternatively, a 5.56 version of the Minigun, thats computer aimed, would also likely be fairly effective, and have a further range. 5.56 would allow a large quantity of ammo to be stored in the ammo hopper, and would be plenty of energy for disabling a drone. Sort of like a 5.56 CIWS.  

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