autogun

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by autogun

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3232
    MEMBERS
  • 183504
    MESSAGES
  • 4
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

carl gustav / recoilless   General Military Discussion

Started 3-Jul by smg762; 689 views.
smg762

From: smg762

3-Jul

Do guns like the Carl gustav shoulder fired rifle have much usage these days? am i to understand that the energys are only useful for HEAT, and not enough for KE rounds..?   (out of curiousity what would be the muzzle energy of a KE round for shoulder rifles?)

it strikes me that a more compact variant could make a great replacement for current man-fired grenade launchers, if you designed it around a 30mm, flat shooting, grenade.

if one could solve the problem of user-safety, could semi-recoiless be applied to, say, a M2HB to add an extra 5000ft lbs without needing a heavier gun? or is 'semi-recoiless' impossible

and lastly could an MBT incorporate it for better performance, or is it frankly impractical to try and vent the gasses out the rear of a tank

  • Edited 03 July 2021 11:47  by  smg762
In reply toRe: msg 1
stancrist

From: stancrist

3-Jul

smg762 said:

Do guns like the Carl gustav shoulder fired rifle have much usage these days? am i to understand that the energys are only useful for HEAT, and not enough for KE rounds..?   (out of curiousity what would be the muzzle energy of a KE round for shoulder rifles?)

https://youtu.be/dUoBb3h9HWA?t=7

https://youtu.be/lHQfQPSlSHg?t=30

smg762 said:

it strikes me that a more compact variant could make a great replacement for current man-fired grenade launchers, if you designed it around a 30mm, flat shooting, grenade.

Recoilless rifles are probably not a viable replacement for grenade launchers. 

A 40mm grenade launcher can be easily carried, loaded and fired by one man:

     https://youtu.be/NTkLxE1ydCM?t=41

Due to the method of loading, a recoilless rifle really needs a two-man crew:

     https://youtu.be/qsM8EtBZ-EQ?t=13

In reply toRe: msg 1
Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

3-Jul

There have been recoilless rifles mounted on the outside of AFVs. 

In reply toRe: msg 1
DavidPawley

From: DavidPawley

4-Jul

smg762 said:

lastly could an MBT incorporate it for better performance, or is it frankly impractical to try and vent the gasses out the rear of a tank

It’s not the impracticality of venting a Davis gun from a tank that prevents the performance being better, it’s that the performance is not better.

Main gun recoil isn’t really a problem for a 60 tonne class MBT. The effectiveness of main gun KE projectiles is due to their velocity and mass, which are driven by high pressures. Davis guns are very inefficient and cannot develop high pressure, at least not on the 85+ kpsi order of a modern main gun.

A recoilless gun*, like wombat, M40 or Carl Gustav can’t launch a massive KE penetrator at anything approaching the velocity of APFSDS from a 120 or 125mm gun so the benefit** of lighter weight gun construction and easier portability aren’t worth the costs***.

*Davis principal; a production rarefaction wave gun might be able to match performance but would still have major backblast and mounting problems.

**In the MBT context, the benefits aren’t of any benefit.

***The costs are  lower muzzle velocity, massive backblast, required external mounting, inefficient propellant use and thus much larger case volume needed, incompatibility with combustible case materials (probably, since the case must act as a rocket motor, but fixed in the gun) and worse ballistic performance than a normal cased gun of equivalent size.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

4-Jul

Yeah. Even RAVEN guns (which are just extremely heavily optimized Davis guns) wouldn't really be a good fit for AFV's.

stancrist

From: stancrist

4-Jul

However, recoilless rifles have been used on light AFV's for infantry fire support.

General Gavin's Ontos Saves inept marines, Part 2 dynmicpara

An U.S. Army vehicle concept from LTG James Gavin--the Ontos--was developed with Army R&D funds and then bought by the USMC using our tax dollars to offer sl...

autogun

From: autogun

5-Jul

stancrist said:

However, recoilless rifles have been used on light AFV's for infantry fire support.

I really wouldn't want to be the guy standing at the back of the vehicle with that gun going off...... the painting somewhat minimises the backblast!

JPeelen

From: JPeelen

5-Jul

I thought the same.

stancrist

From: stancrist

5-Jul

autogun said:

I really wouldn't want to be the guy standing at the back of the vehicle with that gun going off...... the painting somewhat minimises the backblast!

LOL.  Yes, it does "somewhat" minimize the backblast.  I used a different pic initially, but upon my return to the forum later, it had inexplicably vanished.

I probably should've just used a Vietnam War photo.

TOP