gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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Spoon-tip bullets   Ammunition <20mm

Started 23-Aug by EmericD; 709 views.
EmericD

From: EmericD

23-Aug

Some time ago we exchanged some views about spoon-tip bullets, I just found some data forgotten on my computer.

This graph compares the KE deposit during the first 15 cm of bullet travel in 20% gelatin and the volume of the temporary cavity, for the solid T614 spoon tip bullet (purple and blue dots) and the US M193 (in red).

At short range (50 m, five shots), the spoon type bullet is delivering 700-800 J, creating a cavity between 1250 and 1900 cm^3, very similar to the M193 behavior.

At 100 m, the spoon type is still delivering 600 J, producing a cavity around 1600 cm^3, again very similar to (or slightly better than) the M193.

The problem is that at 100 m, only 2 shots impacted the 15 cm x 15 cm gelatin block (out of 5 shots...)

smg762

From: smg762

23-Aug

Hk  did a 4.6 version long ago and CBJ has a variant of their 9mm round with 4mm bullet.

In reply toRe: msg 2
smg762

From: smg762

23-Aug

You didn't find any more info on that PUC300 round in terms of accuracy...also was it considered a danger due to the separating sabot

In reply toRe: msg 2
EmericD

From: EmericD

24-Aug

smg762 said:

Hk did a 4.6 version long ago

That was this one that was tested. The T614 is the solid bullet for the 4.6x36 mm.

In reply toRe: msg 3
EmericD

From: EmericD

24-Aug

smg762 said:

You didn't find any more info on that PUC300 round in terms of accuracy...also was it considered a danger due to the separating sabot

I found some shooting results, not from the weapon but from a bench in order to test the ammo produced and check that the sabots were OK and the bullet properly stabilized.

At 15 m, the typical 10-shots group extreme spread for the first ammo lots was 42 mm, or 9.6 MoA.

The muzzle velocity ES was 130 m/s, and the SD was 30 m/s, or 5 times the typical SD of a good military ammo.

The dispersion of the sabot was ~360 mm at 2 m from the muzzle, or a dispersion cone of ~10°.

The total polycarbonate sabot weight was 0.5 g (2 parts of 0.25 g each) and were dangerous up to ~5 m.

The program started in 1984, and the results obtained in 1993 (when it was stopped) were still very far from what you could expect of a practical system.

Electric ignition was a problem of it's own.

Caseless ammo was a problem of it's own, and was even more complex with the electric ignition requirement.

Saboted bullet was a problem of it's own, and it was even more complex due to the caseless ammo.

smg762

From: smg762

24-Aug

Did you get the impression that it could have been more accurate with a non separating sabot....and also less chance of hitting friendlies

I'm convinced that any case less weapon needs 3 rotating chambers like the lmg11 

It's similar to one my designs but I was exited by the aeroshell idea of reducing friction. Possibly allowing a .22 to reach 762 natio energy

  • Edited 24 August 2021 9:04  by  smg762
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

26-Aug

"Some time ago we exchanged some views about spoon-tip bullets, I just found some data forgotten on my computer."

Thanks for sharing this data. I've always wondered about spoon tips, and this data sadly shows that reviving spoon tips is not likely to happen. 

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