gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3271
    MEMBERS
  • 185620
    MESSAGES
  • 5
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

Poland deploying LMP-2017 60mm Commando Mortars    Army Guns 20+mm

Started 27-Oct by gatnerd; 893 views.
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27-Oct

A few years back I was lusting after the Imortar / Antos mortar after it was reportedly purchased by Polish SF.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/14/10lb-60mm-ultra-light-mortar-adopted-polish-special-forces-group/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vkHwLxhOgw

Since then, Poland has apparently taken that basic design, and produced their own domestic variant known as the LMP-2017. And it has now received 648 of them, extending it from niche SF only item to I take it a more mainstream infantry implement.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_october_2021_global_security_army_industry/648_lmp-2017_light_infantry_mortars_already_delivered_to_polish_territorial_defense_forces.html

https://www.defence24.com/polish-ministry-of-defence-acquires-780-light-mortar-systems

http://www.zmt.tarnow.pl/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/LMP-2017-ANG.pdf

Most of the videos on it are in Polish, but it one feature that is obviously new from the previous I-mortar/Antos is the upgrade of the sight. Whereas the I-mortar had a liquid sight, this LMP-2017 uses a liquid sight with LED backlight powered by a CR123. There is a visible backlight option, as well as an IR backlight option for use with night vision goggles. Pretty clever. 

The downside is the increase in weight. The I-Mortar / Antos was listed at 5.3kg/11.69lbs with liquid sight. The LMP-2017 is listed at less then or equal to 7.5kg/ 16.53lbs. Whether it really is that heavy, or whether it is more towards the 'less than' side of less than or equal to, remains to be seen. 

This article believes the increase in weight for the LMP is due to its ability to fire legacy polish 60mm ammo as well as current NATO 60mm:

https://www.overtdefense.com/2019/12/05/lmp-2017-light-mortars-delivered-to-polish-army-and-territorial-forces/

The increased weight over other European mortars can possibly be explained by the need to provide backwards compatibility with non-standard 60mm rounds used in the LM-60, which can be done with a barrel sleeve. As the legacy rounds may be higher pressure, it’s possible that the LMP’s barrel is of a thicker profile to account for it.

Another source claims the difference is that the I-Mortar used an alloy/lightweight barrel, whereas the LMP uses a steel barrel to improve longevity and reduce cost. 

Even if it's 7.5kg, that puts LMP-2017 about the weight of Rheinmetalls 6.8kg Commando mortar, but with a built in sight and better ergonomics. And the current M4 Carl Gustaf with its Aimpoint FCU is 18lbs.  So all in all the LMP-2017 is in line with modern HE-Chuckers, and looks to offer a nice capability. 

Overall this looks the be the most advanced Commando Mortar to be widely fielded. Hopefully we will see further refinements, either in reducing weight, or in the provision of more sophisticated FCU's for improving hit probability. 

  • Edited 27 October 2021 1:30  by  gatnerd
Refleks

From: Refleks

27-Oct

I'm a fan. I think commando mortars are a good complement to GPMG teams at platoon level, especially if everyone is carrying a few rounds anyway for the company.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27-Oct

Refleks said:

I'm a fan. I think commando mortars are a good complement to GPMG teams at platoon level, especially if everyone is carrying a few rounds anyway for the company

Absolutely. 

One of the things I had thought about with regards to 6.8 NGSW is that if each squad has 1-2x 6.8 LMG's (which likely outdistance the legacy m240) then the future 'weapons squad' that was previously devoted to M240's could be switched to a more HE-centric capability such as deploying Commando Mortars and/or Carl Gustaf's. 

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

27-Oct

Years ago i got to handle the Czech original and fire some practice rounds . Looking at the upgrade with larger frame  i can imagine that weight grew somewhat. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27-Oct

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

Years ago i got to handle the Czech original and fire some practice rounds .

Very cool! Not too many people I imagine have that experience.

How did you find aiming? Does it seem like something that would be capable of firing fairly accurately? 

In reply toRe: msg 6
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27-Oct

Some info on the standard polish O-LM60 round that the LMP-2017 fires.

2kg shell, 1500+ fragments, 15m lethal radius. 

And from a Polish wikipedia:

The basic O-LM60 grenade exceeds the weight of similar foreign missiles and is characterized by a high density of shrapnel coverage [1] . Between the explosive (TNT) and the shell, fragmenting into approx. 300 pieces, there are 1500 steel balls, 4 mm in diameter, embedded in plastic, which increase the fragmentation effect [1] . The ammunition is not compatible with NATO standard ammunition (60.7 mm mortars) [1] .

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/60_mm_mo%C5%BAdzierz_LM-60D

Further confirmation would be cool if the mortar does indeed use a pre-fragmented design. If so, thats not as perfect as the SAAB MAPAM, but is superior in design to a traditional cast iron mortar shell.

For example this Bulgarian mortar shell designed for Commando mortars reps having 600 fragments:

https://bulcomersks.com/military-products/ammunition/mortar-rounds/60mm-mortar-round-ar-m60-6/

Not sure how other 60mm's compare. 

renatohm

From: renatohm

27-Oct

15m kill radius and 2.3 km range.

Pin them down at 1 km with NGSW then send some 60 mm mortars on them.

Sounds nice on the right end, and very bad to be on the receiving end.

renatohm

From: renatohm

27-Oct

Brazil still uses the legacy 13 kg Brandt mortar, even at 8 kg this one would save enough weight to get two additional rounds.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

27-Oct

renatohm said:

Pin them down at 1 km with NGSW then send some 60 mm mortars on them.

Absolutely. That was broadly my idea for dealing with body armor - focus on lightweight FA weapons to pin down enemy troops, and then use Squad and Platoon level HE to take them out. 

In terms of launcher and shell weight, thats a great point that the lighter mortar = more shells.

60mm is nice in that it offers a good bang to weight ratio:

LMP-2017 = 16.53lbs

60mm Shell = 4.4lbs

x5 = 22lbs

=38.53lbs for LMP + 5x rounds

Carl Gustav M4= 14.55lbs

Aimpoint FCS13RE = 3.53lbs

HE 441D Airburst = 6.83lbs

x3= 20.5lbs

= 38.53lbs for M4 CG w/ FCU + 3x rounds

So vs the CG, you also gain +2 shells. Although the CG is almost certainly more accurate. 

TOP