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Next Gen Stinger / MANPAD    General Military Discussion

Started 9/4/22 by gatnerd; 10229 views.
In reply toRe: msg 34
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

31-May

Stinger production being boosted and components being modernized, but not nearly at the scale of MANPAD production needed for US SHORAD + Ukraine + Taiwan. However that may be due to plans to shift to a new "Stinger 2.0" in the near future. 

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/raytheon-missiles--defense-awarded-624-million-for-stinger-missile-production-301556968.html

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

31-May

Given that customer will pay anything they want, 480k $ for 90's missile is a steal stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye Raytheon could probably have charged 1mio per pop and US DOD would pay.

In reply toRe: msg 36
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

7-Jun

At SeaFuture, the naval exhibition taking place in La Spezia, Italy 5-8 June, MBDA Italy showcased for the first time the concept mock-up of its Next Generation V-SHORAD missile

Unveiled at the Italian Army Chief Lt.Gen. Pietro Serino before the Defence Commission, the Next Generation V-SHORAD missile being developed by MBDA Italy aims at replacing the Stinger, currently in service with Italian Army Air Defence units, providing the shorter range arm of the layered system that will be formed by the SAMP/T NG, the Grifo, based on the CAMM ER missile, and finally the NG V-SHORAD.

Not much is unveiled as the system is in the concept development phase. At a first estimate, and assuming the mock up is at 1:1 scale, the missile, which will be definitely fitted with an IIR sensor, is around 1.5 meters long, its diameter being roughly 70 mm.

According to information previously provided by the company, qualification activities should be carried out in 2025-26.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

7-Jun

If 70mm I wonder if they could be fired from high capacity pods similar/identical to current 70mm rockets/APKWS?

Especially given concerns about future Swarms that would be very handy.

Current Stinger multi shot is not very space efficient.

Refleks

From: Refleks

7-Jun

Don't see why not, as an adjunct to other counter-drone systems

https://defensereview.com/northrop-grummanatk-venom-targeting-pod-7-round-gatr-l-precision-guided-laser-guided-2-7570mm-hydra-rocket-pod-combo-for-military-special-operations-specops/

But we've got to do better than expending stinger and even 70mm APKWS sized missiles against small drones, it gets non-viable very quickly if we start seeing cluster sub-munitions being replaced by drones and that's the next logical step in this sword and shield progression.

As far as more traditional SHORAD goes, we do need a stinger follow on, ideally something like the aborted RMP Block II with the AIM-9X focal plane array and a better motor.  What would be really disruptive though, especially for the export market, would be a pedestal mounted MANPAD in the 75-100 lbs range. Think Mistral on steroids. These are only "man portable" in the sense that you can technically move them around on foot with a crew like an 81mm mortar or M2 machine gun (not that it's practical to do so, they'll probably just end up in the bed of a pickup truck), but now you get the advantages of a MANPAD (Small, Passive, resistant to SEAD/DEAD so they'll persist throughout the conflict) and the advantages of a more capable passive SHORAD that can reach up into a much higher altitude bracket.  Closest example was the old AA-8 "Aphid" derived SAM, though with advances in technology we could do much better in this size and weight range. The advantage here would that a threat can't just fly above 10k and assume they're safe from MANPADs, they'd be forced to operate much higher.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

8-Jun

Refleks said:

But we've got to do better than expending stinger and even 70mm APKWS sized missiles against small drones, it gets non-viable very quickly if we start seeing cluster sub-munitions being replaced by drones and that's the next logical step in this sword and shield progression. As far as more traditional SHORAD goes, we do need a stinger follow on, ideally something like the aborted RMP Block II with the AIM-9X focal plane array and a better motor.  What would be really disruptive though, especially for the export market, would be a pedestal mounted MANPAD in the 75-100 lbs range. Think Mistral on steroids.

Yes for anti small drone use, $500-5000 drone vs $50,000 missile is a losing strategy. They really need to be reserved for larger drones or HVT drones (ie a Bayraktar sized big drone, or a Orlan-10 style drone thats being used as a spotter / laser designator for artillery.)

30mm AHEAD + Missiles + EW/Microwave/Laser as a sort of belt/suspenders/drawsting triple redundancy is likely to be the way to go as far as SHORAD vehicles.

Drone cluster bombs though, that will be a nightmare. Short of a super powerful microwave / EMP device to fry the air, or fighting behind a giant web of golf nets, I don't see how you stop those out in the open if theres a 100+ little drones descending at once. 

....

In terms of the XL MANPAD, I think thats a great idea / very much a system Taiwan would need to ward off paratrooper deploying aircraft and fighter jets. 

A big downside to the US strategy of overwhelming airpower is that we've not spent nearly as much effort on anti-air systems.

The closest current Pedestal mount type MANPAD system is the 3x shot Starstreek LML.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/british_united_kingdom_missile_systems_vehicles_uk/starstreak_hvm_high_velocity_short-range_surface-to-air_missile_manpads_technical_data_sheet_picture.html

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

8-Jun

We are not talking 50.000$ missiles , new built legarcy Stinger for US military is 460k$ for 1470units  ,LMM martlet is 1.5mio a pop

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

9-Jun

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

LMM martlet is 1.5mio

I had previously read they were around 30k Pounds / $40-50k?

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

9-Jun

LMM Martlet is expensive as fuck , Starstreak even more so.  

Martlet - Ukraine's Latest Surface to Air Missile

A brand new and little known MANPADS was demonstrated over the weekend - the THALES MartletSources for this video can be found at the relevant article on:htt...

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

9-Jun

I just cant see those being accurate prices.

StarStreak I'm seeing quoted at $100-175k. And Martlet is described as less sophisticated a missile.

$1.5 million for Martlet would make it nearly as expensive as a Tomahawk Cruise Missile (~$1.75-$2m.) The AAMRAM-D was $1 million, and the AIM9X Sidewinder is $473k

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32277/here-is-what-each-of-the-pentagons-air-launched-missiles-and-bombs-actually-cost

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