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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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MGs   Small Arms <20mm

Started 9-May by graylion; 9727 views.
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10-May

gatnerd said:

Are they still in production?

That is the problem.
They are but not in Germany. As far as I know Turkey and Pakistan do still manufacture the MG3 large scale.

In Germany only replacement parts are manufactured on demand in small batches... if at all.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10-May

graylion said:

Like the FN Evolys?

Looks flimsy to me.

I have no information about this gun besides what the hompage says. Maybe its great maybe not. We will have to wait and see.

But I do want to point out that this as opposed to the successfull 7,62 GPMGs used in the LMG role the Evolys is NOT GP. Its LMG only. It also has a 16" barrel of rifle profile. Which means its sustained fire capability will be very limited. Its advertised as "handles like a rifle" so its seems its designed for a very special niche. It might be great in it. The question is if there is any serious demand.

graylion

From: graylion

10-May

schnuersi said:

graylion said: Like the FN Evolys? Looks flimsy to me. I have no information about this gun besides what the hompage says. Maybe its great maybe not. We will have to wait and see. But I do want to point out that this as opposed to the successfull 7,62 GPMGs used in the LMG role the Evolys is NOT GP. Its LMG only. It also has a 16" barrel of rifle profile. Which means its sustained fire capability will be very limited. Its advertised as "handles like a rifle" so its seems its designed for a very special niche. It might be great in it. The question is if there is any serious demand.

Time to define what we mean by LMG? I was mostly thinking SAW, leaving the GPMG role to the MMG.

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

10-May

I believe it's very possible to make a very light machine gun that's "not flimsy" it just won't look like much like an mg4 mg5 or an evolys.

I think schnuersi and I both agree on mg4 and mg5 being far from ideal.

I also think one way you could get something both light and high fire rate is by going the "mg45" the cetme Ameli sorta shows the possibilities in this regard, especially being pretty freakishly light for a mostly steel gun.

There's definitely ways to do what's essentially a super Ameli in a major caliber without increasing the weight a whole bunch.

This is not my personal preferred solution but I can't pretend it wouldn't be workable, it would actually work very well and be very low risk.

My preference is for a 235/248 revamp which can also be stupid light, and schnuersi will be happy to know that in a newer iteration there's absolutely nothing preventing a much higher rof.

Machine gun theory and practice is an interesting subject all around

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

10-May

My question is how much demand are we actually going to see for mmg's going forward?

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10-May

graylion said:

Time to define what we mean by LMG

A LMG is a machine gun fired from bipod.

Personally I distinguish SAWs for LMG by using the former term for SCHV LMGs like the MG4 or the Minimi and the latter for full power rifle caliber MGs like the MG3, MG5 or MAG. A MMG is a full power rifle caliber MG fired from mount/tripod.
A GPMG is a MG designed to fullfill the LMG and MMG depending on accessories.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10-May

roguetechie said:

I think schnuersi and I both agree on mg4 and mg5 being far from ideal.

Yes we do.

roguetechie said:

I also think one way you could get something both light and high fire rate is by going the "mg45" the cetme Ameli sorta shows the possibilities in this regard, especially being pretty freakishly light for a mostly steel gun. There's definitely ways to do what's essentially a super Ameli in a major caliber without increasing the weight a whole bunch. This is not my personal preferred solution but I can't pretend it wouldn't be workable, it would actually work very well and be very low risk.

Yes a modern take on the MG45 concept could be very promising. Its basically the G3 working principle of roller delay used in a MG.
The advantage is there are few moving parts, all movement is linear,no gas system at all and few parts in general. This could result in a very light yet rubust and simple weapon.

The drawback is of course that roller delayed weapons are somewhat ammo sensitive.

The two guns closest real guns to the MG45 are propably the SIG 710 and the Rheinmetall MG 60. But being Swiss and ~70 years old its still pretty heavy. They managed to increase the weight of the MG42 by allmost 5 kg when adapting and modifying it into the MG51. The MG 60 only weights ~8 kg in the LMG configuration. As a '60 design (hence the name).
 

roguetechie said:

My preference is for a 235/248 revamp which can also be stupid light, and schnuersi will be happy to know that in a newer iteration there's absolutely nothing preventing a much higher rof.

The intresting thing about the XM235 IMHO is the concept of a basically self contained system that is housed in a thin protective shell and equiped with accessories. This allows for conciderable freedom of design. The concept also is independen of working principle and caliber.

graylion

From: graylion

10-May

schnuersi said:

XM235

One thing that struck me as a potential weight saver are pencil barrels. But of course you can't dump massive amounts of ammo through them - they will melt eventually. They seem to keep their zero very well though. Modern heat treating seems to be a game changer.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10-May

roguetechie said:

My question is how much demand are we actually going to see for mmg's going forward?

Well that is a big question.
IMHO the MMG is becoming more important than it used to be. Or rather its importance is now acnoledged again. For several reasons.
Volume fire weapons on allmost any vehicle are more important nowadays. During the Cold war era pintle mounted MGs where allmost everywhere. But they mostly where intended for AA self defense... or a moral measure in case of air attack. Now a general self defense weapon that can be used in case on an ambush or sudden contact is important. The importance of the MMG increased with the proliferation of RWS.
Forward bases, observation posts etc need to be guarded and defended. A primary role for MMGs.
MMGs are the one heavy weapon that is seldom restricted by ROEs. It can be made available in large numbers and at allmost any tactical level.
MMGs provide a lot of fire power with few men. Which is important for armies with low manpower and nations with aging populations and low manpower reserves.

The MMG including long range and indirect fire came back in Afghanistan. Now in Ukraine we also see massive use of these.

stancrist

From: stancrist

10-May

schnuersi said:

       graylion said: Time to define what we mean by LMG

A LMG is a machine gun fired from bipod.

Personally I distinguish SAWs for LMG by using the former term for SCHV LMGs like the MG4 or the Minimi and the latter for full power rifle caliber MGs like the MG3,

The drawback to making up one's own personal definitions is that it typically causes confusion.

A "SAW" (Squad Automatic Weapon) can be a SCHV LMG; SCHV automatic rifle; full power, rifle caliber LMG; full power, rifle caliber MMG; or full power, rifle caliber automatic rifle.

And not all machine guns fired from a bipod are LMGs.  Below is a M240 MMG fired from bipod.

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