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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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MGs   Small Arms <20mm

Started 9/5/22 by graylion; 10082 views.
schnuersi

From: schnuersi

10/5/22

graylion said:

14.5x113

What do you want this legacy round for?
Its overpowered for anti personel use, large and heavy. While its outdated/not powerfull anymore for anti vehicle use.
The 14,5 is very close to a 20 mm AC round. The gun is also of similar size and weight. But it lacks the extra power of the KE round and the payload capacity.The

The 5.7x28 is virtually identical in performance to the 4,6x30. If one doesn't cut it the other won't as well.

To select the right cartidges for your mix you need to define what you want to do with them. Once you do that you get performance parameters that will narrow the selection down. This way the cartidges selected to the mix make sense and complement each other.

It 6,8x51 will become a new standard is currently completly uncertain. As EmericD said its basically a 7,62x51.

stancrist

From: stancrist

10/5/22

schnuersi said:

I tend to prefer technical descriptions.

Same here.  However, I don't know of anyone else who defines SAW = SCHV LMG.

I know of only two instances of an LMG being called a SAW, and one is not SCHV.

schnuersi said:

As far as I knwo the M240 is a GPMG and when its used from bipod its used in the LMG role and if its used from tripod its in the MMG role. MMG being defined by the use of a mount and being rifle caliber.

The US Army considers the M240 to be a MMG, regardless of what type mount is used.

PEO Soldier | Portfolio - PM SL - M240B/L/H 7.62mm Medium Machine Gun (army.mil)

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

10/5/22

schnuersi said:

That is the problem. They are but not in Germany. As far as I know Turkey and Pakistan do still manufacture the MG3 large scale. In Germany only replacement parts are manufactured on demand in small batches... if at all.

Thats a bummer. Shame to see such an iconic and effective design fade away; dont imagine many will go for buying more from Turkey, even if they are a NATO member with solid arms industry. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

10/5/22

graylion said:

Time to define what we mean by LMG?

Intended to primarily / exclusively be fire from a bipod is my general go to LMG litmus. Whereas if Tripod/Vehicle mounting is common / weapon is well designed/advertised for, then its  GPMG. 

Example being the MK48 vs M240. Both are 7.62 belt fed machineguns, but the MK48 really is intended for squad bipod use, whereas the M240 is true general purpose machinegun extensively employed on bipods/tripods/vehicles.

...However LMG is a generally 'squishy' definition with some debate (not like the distinction between assault rifles and submachine guns which is pretty settled terminology) 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

10/5/22

stancrist said:

A "SAW" (Squad Automatic Weapon) can be a SCHV LMG; SCHV automatic rifle; full power, rifle caliber LMG; full power, rifle caliber MMG; or full power, rifle caliber automatic rifle. And not all machine guns fired from a bipod are LMGs

The BREN gun is the ultimate confusing one. It straddles the line across all categories:

-Automatic rifle

-SAW

-LMG

-GPMG

There are numerous pictures from WW2 of it being used in all categories.

graylion

From: graylion

11/5/22

So as an overreach replacement for .50, how about a long recoil 20mm? Which one? x82, x102 or x128?

  • Edited 11 May 2022 3:40  by  graylion
stancrist

From: stancrist

11/5/22

gatnerd said:

The BREN gun is the ultimate confusing one. It straddles the line across all categories...

The BREN is mag-fed, so I always thought it fit in the automatic rifle category, while a lot of other folks argue that it's a mag-fed LMG.

It clearly was widely used as a squad automatic weapon, but GPMG?  Was the BREN ever used as a coax machine gun in tanks or IFVs?

--------------------

An exception to the "fired from a bipod = LMG" rule is the tripod-mounted M1919A4 Browning, which the US Army considered an LMG.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

11/5/22

stancrist said:

I don't know of anyone else who defines SAW = SCHV LMG.

I think the definition is really obvious. The weapon widely known and mostly assosiated with the term SAW is the M249. Which is a SCHV weapon. The difference between the M249 and other LMGs really is the caliber. Later the term was used for other weapons filling a similar role. Using SAW for full caliber belt feds came much later. Its actually pretty recent.
This is at least my perception of the last decades.

I just picked up the term SAW and used it to describe SCHV LMGs because the former is shorter, I am lazy and to me it was an obvious thing. There also was a need to distingish the two because people in a SCHV vs full power or 5,56 vs 7,62 debate people would commonly refer to 5,56 belt feds as LMGs but they are simply not the same category of weapon as full caliber MGs. The capability gap is to big.

stancrist said:

The US Army considers the M240 to be a MMG, regardless of what type mount is used.

Ok, but this clearly is a US special and a nomenclature choice based on something not technical at all. The M240 being a variant of the MG is a GPMG.
Coming back to the being lazy thing how is distingished between the different uses? MMG on bipod and MMG on mount? Without further information just mentioning MMG would be useless because it could be anything.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

11/5/22

gatnerd said:

dont imagine many will go for buying more from Turkey, even if they are a NATO member with solid arms industry.

Actually it was tried. Not only from Turkey but from Pakistan as well. It was found out that the parts are not up to spec. They don't meet the German standards. Reworking them was so expensive and time consuming that small scale production on demand in Germany was effectively cheaper. So the idea was shelved.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

11/5/22

graylion said:

So as an overreach replacement for .50, how about a long recoil 20mm? Which one? x82, x102 or x128?

In what role? What is the intended target? Who is to use it? What .50 loading? Mobility?

Just saying it should have a longer effective range than .50 is not really helpfull. Depending on loading and bullet the .338 Lapua can reach longer effective ranges than common .50 loads. There have been other long range cartidges specifially designed to overreach .50. No need to go bigger.

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