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Tracks vs Wheels   General Army topics

Started 26-May by graylion; 15641 views.
In reply toRe: msg 28
graylion

From: graylion

27-May

also, let me derail this conversation a bit further: why is everybody retiring their Broncos, Warthogs, BVS 10s? Surely if we want tracks, they are the way to go?

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27-May

stancrist said:

Actually, it is you who is mistaken. The IFV was not derived from any tank. The IFV is an evolution of the APC.

I am not talking about what vehicles has wich linage. But about the concept. The IFV concept is not derived from the APC but from the needs of the tank.
Otherwise why create an IFV in the first place?

BTW the M113 and all its variants including the YPR-765/AIFV are tracked APCs. In the case of the latter armed with an autocannon.
If your argumet is that its called AIFV by the manufacturer I say: you can put lipstick on a swine...
It is true though that the AIFV was an attempt to adress the shortcomings of the pure M113 APC.
Never the less AIFV isn't the first. It was done after the IFV concept materialised in the form of the HS30 and the BMP-1. Neither of these two is an evolution of an APC.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27-May

graylion said:

why is everybody retiring their Broncos, Warthogs, BVS 10s?

Who is doing that?
The German Army is in the process to replace/supplement its BVs with the CATV. Wich is basically a follow up on the BV10S.
The CATV program is a multi national program from Germany, UK, Sweden and the Netherlands.
I have seen one of the prototypes during testing in Trier a couple of month ago.
Serveral of the vehicles you mention need to be replaced because they have been worn out by the long and intensive use in Afghanistan.

stancrist

From: stancrist

27-May

schnuersi said:

[The ability to keep up with the gun tanks across all terrains in all conditions at all times] is what defines the IFV and seperates it from the APC.

Nonsense.  There is no reason that an APC cannot have the same mobility as an IFV. 

Indeed, since an APC typically weighs significantly less, it can have better mobility. 

schnuersi said:

An IFV is a vehicle that can perform the combat function of infantry.

That is false.  No vehicle can perform the combat function of infantry.  That's why we still have infantry.

schnuersi said:

IFVs are all about mobility and firepower. Troop carrying is tertiary to this.

That's absurd.  The only reason that IFVs even exist is to carry infantry.

stancrist

From: stancrist

27-May

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: When the Marines' decision makers disagree, "the Marines" disagree.

Well, is it clear that the wheeled ACV can move over all grounds at the same speed as the AAV then?

I don't know.  You would have to ask the Marines.

stancrist

From: stancrist

27-May

schnuersi said:

In the video it even says the APCs need to be backed up by tanks. In other words they are not supporting the tanks.

Well, duh.  It's an infantry assault.  The tanks are supporting the infantry.

schnuersi said:

The M113...can not operate close to tanks because its to slow, lacks protection and it doesn't really bring any mounted firepower. The only thing it brings is dismounts. And this rather slow I would add.

Depends upon which tanks you're talking about.  AFAIK, the M113 APC was just as fast as the M48 tank, and had equal, if not superior, cross-country mobility.

schnuersi said:

An M113 doesn't compare to a Marder or a Bradley.

Of course not.  The Marder and Bradley are later generations of armored infantry vehicles.

That is like saying the M1903 Springfield doesn't compare to the M1 Garand or FG42 rifles.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27-May

stancrist said:

Indeed, since an APC typically weighs significantly less, it can have better mobility.

Tactical mobility not technical. To have tactical mobility compared to a tank you adequate protection. A light weight APC lacks protection and thus its tactical mobility is significantly less compared to its technical mobility.
But of course there are some heavy APC that do that. So it is possible. Its just uncommon and a hAPC is not an IFV.

stancrist said:

That is false. No vehicle can perform the combat function of infantry. That's why we still have infantry.

Nope. It depends on the circumstances and environment. In combined arms manoeuver warfare vehicles not only can perform some combat functions of infantry they are needed to do so since infantry peforms poorly or isn't there.
There have been several attempts to dispense with dismounts entirely. With limited success until now. We will have to wait and see how the BMPT performs in UA.
This is also why mech infantry usually has significantly less infantrymen per unit than non mech infanty. They don't need them. Six men plus and IFV easily outperform a platoon of foot infantry in a lot of scenarios.
Most attempts with UGCV have the ultimate goal to replace infantry in most scenarios with the intermediate step of supplementing infantry.
 

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27-May

stancrist said:

It's an infantry assault.

Which at this point in time was an anachronism.
Also i am not talking about infantry assaults but mechanised assaults and combined arms manoeuver warfare. A foot assault is the antithesis to that. This is exactly what I meant with the IFV concept is a result of armored warfare and doctrin. Infantry by itself was perfectly happy with the APC.

stancrist said:

Depends upon which tanks you're talking about. AFAIK, the M113 APC was just as fast as the M48 tank, and had equal, if not superior, cross-country mobility.

Maybe but in this case the M48 had piss poor mobility because the mobility of the M113 isn't impressive even by '60 standards. Also when the M113 was introduced the M60 allready was in service. So it would have had to keep up with it. Never the less the M113 can not work next to tanks because it lacks serious protection. It can be shot up even by HMGs. Which means it needs to be protected. It can not fight together with tanks. It can only follow at a safe distance. It also carries no weapon to supplement the tanks.

stancrist said:

Of course not. The Marder and Bradley are later generations of armored infantry vehicles.

If this is your only problem: The HS.30 was introduced in '60 and the SPz 11-2 in '59. Both are conciderable more powerfull than the M113 because they are better armored and carrys a AC. The dismounts also can use their weapons while mounted. While the execution of the HS.30 was very poor the concept worked and resulted in the Marder.

stancrist

From: stancrist

27-May

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: Actually, it is you who is mistaken. The IFV was not derived from any tank. The IFV is an evolution of the APC.

I am not talking about what vehicles has wich linage. But about the concept.

I am talking about the concept.  

schnuersi said:

The IFV concept is not derived from the APC...

It absolutely was.  In concept, the IFV is just an APC with increased armor protection and greater firepower. 

The IFV is not a tank.  The IFV is an improved infantry transporter.

schnuersi said:

...but from the needs of the tank. Otherwise why create an IFV in the first place?

To get an improved infantry carrier.

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

27-May

stancrist said:

The IFV is an improved infantry transporter.

No its not. The IFV is a specialised vehicle to supplement the tank.
Why do you think mech inf is part of the armored corps and not the infantry? Because they are no infantry they are armor with some people that dismount to fight if required. The IFV took over most roles of the light tank. It has serious armament including FCS and all that is needed because its there to fight. Its not a carrier. Its a light tank with carrying capacity.

An improved APC would not have required a new name. The name APC is still used for improved vehicles which have little to do with the first ones that appeared.

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