gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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Australian Small Arms Modernization   Small Arms <20mm

Started 1-Oct by gatnerd; 6066 views.
graylion

From: graylion

4-Oct

gatnerd said:

Heres a small drone literally flying on top of a BUK-2M air defense vehicle and guiding artillery onto it.  https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/xsdtn0/ukrainian_drone_guided_artillery_destroying_a/ I'd be surprised if any enemy will be able to fully blanket the skies against these things, especially if radar and ECM guided munitions are employed. 

Hmm, being able to hndle a small drone needs 2things I think
 

  • X-Band radar
  • appropriate software

Does Buk have either?

stancrist

From: stancrist

5-Oct

schnuersi said:

Are you refering to projects like OICW? These where much less focussed on counter defilade but on maximising hit chance in general. The counter defilade capability came with it. The idea was to turn every rifleman into a grenadier and the HE thrower would have been the main weapon. The carbine would basically only function as a build in PDW.

Actually, the "carbine" component of the OICW was not a personal defense weapon.  It was an offensive weapon for use in CQB, where engagement distances and enemy exposure times would be too short for effective employment of the 20mm grenade launcher.

schnuersi said:

This is quite different to the counter defilade weapon proposals we see today.

If you mean the PGS, the only difference between the OICW and the PGS is that the former would have been issued to every squad member, whereas the latter will be issued to just one man.  As with the OICW, the focus of PGS is not solely on counter defilade use.

"The PGS is envisioned to be a man portable integrated weapon system that enables precision engagements to destroy personnel targets in defilade and in the open with increased lethality and precision compared to the legacy M203/M320 grenade launchers.  The PGS is envisioned to consist of a weapon, a fire control, and a suite of ammunition which enables the user to engage targets in defilade/cover, hovering UAS targets, conduct door breaching, engage close combat targets, and light armored targets."  Precision Grenadier System

In reply toRe: msg 31
VPMudde

From: VPMudde

5-Oct

 New Australian 6.8mm guns. Comes in AUG or Stoner flavour.

https://soldiersystems.net/2022/10/04/land-forces-22-thales-6-8-x-51mm-prototypes/

Although they didn’t have an example of the cartridge on hand, I’m told it’s a conventional case design, producing high chamber pressures in order to achieve similar terminal effects to NGSW’s goals.

Looks like a 20" barrel on the bullpup, but the barrel on the Stoner pattern rifle looks more like a 16-ish inch (going by the number of MLok slots on the handguard). Maybe a GD polymer cased round, but slightly hotter than what tried out for the americans, to offset the slightly shorter barrel. There's a GD in Australia, yes?

stancrist

From: stancrist

5-Oct

VPMudde said:

Maybe a GD polymer cased round...

Does not sound like it's the GD/TV polymer cartridge.

"Although they didn’t have an example of the cartridge on hand, I’m told it’s a conventional case design..."

VPMudde said:

Looks like a 20" barrel on the bullpup...

Could be a 20" barrel, but looks more like 18" to me.  Can't get a good estimate with that viewing angle.

  • Edited 05 October 2022 3:25  by  stancrist
In reply toRe: msg 34
stancrist

From: stancrist

5-Oct

Typical bullpup extra-long LOP.  unamused

schnuersi

From: schnuersi

5-Oct

stancrist said:

Actually, the "carbine" component of the OICW was not a personal defense weapon. It was an offensive weapon for use in CQB, where engagement distances and enemy exposure times would be too short for effective employment of the 20mm grenade launcher.

Yes, I admit i overexagerated. Never the less the HE part of the weapon was supposed to be main part. Which would have meant that effectively the entire squad would have shot grenades most of the time. Regardless if the targets would have been in defialde or not. Which is quite different in concept to equiping one or two soldiers per squad with an anti defilade weapon as his main weapon.

The PGS is more of a continuation and improvement of the 40 mm system. The problem is how to get all the mentioned capabilities into one platform. Because i see serveral conflicts in the cited requirement.

stancrist

From: stancrist

7-Oct

schnuersi said:

       stancrist said: Is it not more probable that a small APGM like Pike would be issued on an as required basis, depending on the situation? There are many different types of 40mm rounds, but they are not all issued to each grenadier, for every combat scenario.

Agree. Allthough I would ask how many of the wide range of 40 mm ammo types are actually used and issued on a regular basis. Which are available to the line infantry in a timely manner if the need arises.

Apart from HEDP, the only type of 40mm ammo I have seen used is colored smoke.  https://youtu.be/wmRxVu42BgA?t=62

In reply toRe: msg 37
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

14-Oct

In terms of the Squad utility of having an armed quadcopter, here we see a well concealed machine gun nest located and then destroyed with a single drone dropped grenade.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/y3sejo/ukraine_drone_dropped_munition_takes_out_russian/

Having a drone that can just locate a MG Nest, but is unarmed, forcing the squad to attempt to destroy it with their grenade launchers or RPG/CG weapons, or rely upon fire support that may not be available, seems much less optimal.

stancrist

From: stancrist

15-Oct

gatnerd said:

In terms of the Squad utility of having an armed quadcopter, here we see a well concealed machine gun nest located and then destroyed with a single drone dropped grenade.

I must note that the machine gun nest was not destroyed, because the grenade exploded some distance away, causing little obvious damage. 

And it is unclear if the gunner was killed or incapacitated, or if he was uninjured and just chose to stop firing for the brief duration of the video.

Also, does Ukraine even employ such drones at the squad level?  They reportedly have a special unit to pilot their bomb-dropping quadcopters.

Ukrainians Are Bombing Russians with Custom Drones | Super Users

An elite group of drone operators is leading the charge in Ukraine's David-and-Goliath defence against Putin's Russia. Attacking at night using drone and sur...

gatnerd said:

Having a drone that can just locate a MG Nest, but is unarmed, forcing the squad to attempt to destroy it with their grenade launchers or RPG/CG weapons, or rely upon fire support that may not be available, seems much less optimal.

I agree.  It seems like drones would enhance the squad's effectiveness in addressing such scenarios.

IMO, the "bomber" drones you advocate are inappropriate at the squad level due to size and weight.

I think only the small, lightweight "kamikaze" types like Drone 40 and Ninox 40 belong in the squad.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

15-Oct

I think those flying 40mm munitions have potential.

But there also needs to be some sort of drone for local surveillance with both a daytime and thermal capability for actually finding the enemy before they are in rifle range / finding a concealed enemy. I cant imagine these 40mm suicide drones also have thermal, and if they do, they would be quite expensive to employ. 

My thinking is having a slightly larger folding quadcopter that can carry a 40mm and perform ISR is likely easier and more sustainable then having 2x separate categories of drone.

https://dronexl.co/2022/07/10/dji-mavic-3-drops-grenade-russian-troops/

Most of the Ukraine drones are indeed far too large. However here we have a DJI Mavic 3 dropping a F1 Hand Grenade effectively.

This drone (not including armament or controller) is 31.5oz / just under 2lbs, and volumetrically looks to be ~size of a 200rd SAW pouch. 

A military grade SquadCopter of comparable weight and size, but with thermal and the ability to drop 1x 40mm type munition, I think is totally doable. 

  • Edited 15 October 2022 5:31  by  gatnerd
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