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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 522510 views.
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

25/1/22

Farmplinker said:

How did the 5.56 MG-42 work for Spain? I have read not well

I had read mixed reports.

Certainly looks pretty awesome and controllable in this video:

CETME Ameli - 80 rd burst - WAAAAYYY more fun than the SAW!

WAY more controllable than the M249 SAW.Recoil in almost non-existent.Extremely portable - I'm carrying the weapon, with an 80 rd belt of 5.56x45 mm.My AR-15...

Given the G11's 1967-1990 design timeline, vs the 1974-1981 design timeline for the Ameli, theres every reason to expect Germany could have produced a highly reliable 'Micro42' in less time then the G11. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

25/1/22

stancrist said:

They actually did try something else.  They went from G3 to G36

Well, the G36 was done after the G11 was canceled/failed. And it was only adopted in the mid 1990's, after the Cold War had ended.

Had the Cold War gone hot (say in 1984), the moonshot delays of the G11 program would have resulted in the W. Germans fighting hordes of AK74 weilding Red's with G3 battle rifles. 

stancrist

From: stancrist

26/1/22

gatnerd said:

Had the Cold War gone hot (say in 1984), the moonshot delays of the G11 program would have resulted in the W. Germans fighting hordes of AK74 weilding Red's with G3 battle rifles.

Had the Cold War gone hot in 1958, the delays of the M14 program would have resulted in Americans fighting hordes of AK47 wielding Red's with M1 Garand rifles.

George Chinn once noted that the Germans always sought to create tomorrow's weapons today, while the U.S. always sought to create yesterday's weapons soon.

It's easy to look back now and say they should have taken a different approach, but the Germans were just attempting to do as they had successfully done before.

Caseless ammo is a great idea, at least in theory, and seemed worth pursuing.  It didn't pan out, but they didn't know that at the time.  I can't fault them for trying.

In contrast, the U.S. was well aware of the assault rifle concept in the mid-1940s, but chose to ignore it and develop a slightly improved version of the obsolete M1.

  • Edited 26 January 2022 0:16  by  stancrist
gatnerd

From: gatnerd

26/1/22

stancrist said:

It's easy to look back now and say they should have taken a different approach, but the Germans were just attempting to do as they had successfully done before. Caseless ammo is a great idea, at least in theory, and seemed worth pursuing.  It didn't pan out, but they didn't know that at the time.  I can't fault them for trying.

I mean, it's cool that they tried, and ultimately the Cold didnt turn Hot, so no harm no foul.

That said, the M14 vs G3 issue kind of shows how much delay the G11 resulted in. 

STG44 = 1944. AK47 = 1947

Assault Rifle race is on.

US = M14 1959-1967 --> 1967 M16

W. Germany = G3 1959-1997 --> 1997 G36

So thats a full 30 years of G3ing past when the US swapped out the M14 for an assault rifle. And while the US was slow to see the merits of the Assault Rifle, the Germans actually invented it, yet the W. Germans didnt issue one until 1997.

In terms of Caseless being a good idea. Well, it's lighter to be sure. But my understanding was most of the W.G. infantry would be either motorized, or fighting from defensive positions. Most with an expected lifespan of hours to days if defending some flashpoint like the Fulda Gap.

So not like they needed the weight savings for endless foot patrols in Afghanistan. And the ability to carry more ammo for the same weight in order to slay hordes of Reds was defeated by the absurd magazines, which should have been obvious pretty early in the program.

"Hey Hans, these mags are longer then a Gestapo truncheon..." 

In terms of Tomorrows weapons today...they skipped a whole hell of a lot of tomorrows and went deep into the future with the G11. The AUG was a tomorrow weapon today. The G11 exceeds the advancement of the 2022 NGSW candidates in technology (minus the smart optic.) 

I'm hard pressed to think of a more radical jump in arms technology without intermediate steps, other then going from the HE gravity bomb to the atom bomb. 

Evolutionary design progression:

STG44/AK47 --> SCHV assault rifle --> Next Gen SCHV with optics and improved features/materials --> Aluminum or Polymer case conventional --> cased telescopic polymer --> caseless --> caseless hyperburst

G11 Design progression:

STG44/AK47 --> SCHV Assault Rifle --> Caseless Hyperburst 

Kind of the ultimate reflection of how much a leap the G11 was is the Steyr ACR. Here was a bullpup firing cased telescopic flechettes at 4750fps @ 1200rpm.  That was designed in 1987 and ready for military testing by 1988/90. Vs 30 years of G11 development. 

  • Edited 26 January 2022 3:09  by  gatnerd
stancrist

From: stancrist

26/1/22

gatnerd said:

US = M14 1959-1967 --> 1967 M16

W. Germany = G3 1959-1997 --> 1997 G36

So thats a full 30 years of G3ing past when the US swapped out the M14 for an assault rifle. And while the US was slow to see the merits of the Assault Rifle, the Germans actually invented it, yet the W. Germans didnt issue one until 1997.

The Germans originally wanted to use the StG44, but were prevented from doing so by the Americans, and initially had to use surplus M1 Garands.

Later, the G3 was adopted because the 7.62x51 was forced upon NATO members by the Americans, not because the Germans wanted a battle rifle.

The Germans didn't field an assault rifle until 1997 because the G3 was in service, and its planned replacement (the G11) had been jn development.

And I wouldn't make a big deal out of the Germans adopting a 5.56x45 rifle three decades after the Americans did.

In the early 1960s, the US Army did not want the AR-15, which they were forced to buy by the Secretary of Defense. 

Prior to that action, the Army's leadership had been committed to fully equipping the entire force with the M14 rifle.

If not for the SecDef interference, the M14 may have remained the standard issue rifle for as long as the German G3.

EmericD

From: EmericD

26/1/22

gatnerd said:

So thats a full 30 years of G3ing past when the US swapped out the M14 for an assault rifle. And while the US was slow to see the merits of the Assault Rifle, the Germans actually invented it, yet the W. Germans didnt issue one until 1997.The 1980 declaration of the Federal Republic of Germany, made after the NSMATCC evaluation, summarize this position: “FRG Position a) Will not field the second NATO round in either the individual weapon or light support weapon role but will adopt the G-11 circa 1987. The steel core SS109 type round as specified in NATO STANAG 4172 is too complicated and expensive for manufacture. b) FRG internal position of the test impact and FRG future rifle/machine gun plans are as follows: The NSMATCC evaluation weighted the 5.56 mm cartridge so heavily (because of its low weight and volume) that the 7.62mm cartridge was at disadvantage before the tests even started. However, the results of the shooting test have proven without doubt the superiority of the cal. 7.62mm and thus reinforce the FRG position that two calibres will be required
...[Message truncated]
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JPeelen

From: JPeelen

26/1/22

Hi Emeric,

your message text is somehow irritating the forum software and therefore only shown in small fragments outside the actual message area (on Firefox at least). 

I would hate to miss it. Could you please try again? It looks as if you copied/pasted a pre-formatted text that confuses the software.  Thanks a lot.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

26/1/22

Yes something about that text has done something to the forum, text is now floating over and sideways to the post. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

26/1/22

I think I managed to copy most of Emerics info, I hope this works:

The 1980 declaration of the Federal Republic of Germany, made after the NSMATCC evaluation, summarize this position:

 

The NSMATCC evaluation weighted the 5.56 mm cartridge so heavily (because of its low weight and volume) that the 7.62mm cartridge was at disadvantage before the tests even started.

 

However, the results of the shooting test have proven without doubt the superiority of the cal. 7.62mm and thus reinforce the FRG position that two calibres will be required: for the infantry rifleman as small as possible within effective terminal ballistics limits and light machine gun in 7.62mm calibre.

 

In consequence, the only logical result is to take advantage of the G11 4.7mm caseless technology which reduces volume of the cartridge in comparison to 5.56mm by over one third and reduces weight by about one half. At the same time, the 4.7mm caseless ammunition, during side by side test with the SS109, shows equal test results as that

recommended for the SS109.

Thus, the final decision would be to complete development and produce the G11 to have it ready for mass production in 1985, for

eventual introduction into the FRG Armed Forces starting in 1987, continue with a light machinegun in calibre 7.62mm developing a caseless machinegun in that same calibre for MG / light machinegun utilization.”

EmericD

From: EmericD

27/1/22

gatnerd said:

I hope this works:

Yes it does. Thank you!

As you can bet, with this kind of official annoucement, Germany was not going to adopt the SS-109 until all the nails were put in the G11 coffin.

I think that's a good example of the difference between the US's view and the German's view on this topic.

The US wanted a "universal cartridge" for the squad, and the SS-109 was considered sufficient to deal with ligtly armored targets up to around 550 m.

For Germany, the 5.56 mm was not able to cover all the roles of the LMG, so 2 rounds were needed, and the 5.56 mm was "overpowered" for only "protecting the LMG".

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