gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

Hosted by gatnerd

This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

  • 3339
    MEMBERS
  • 189795
    MESSAGES
  • 0
    POSTS TODAY

Discussions

NGSW Phase 2 Consolidation and info   Small Arms <20mm

Started 30/8/19 by gatnerd; 505286 views.
autogun

From: autogun

24-May

mpopenker said:

the military (any military, Russian included), if unchecked from the outside, tends to create unrealistic requirements Ask any soldier and he wants a gun which is the lightest, the most powerful, has most ammo capacity etc etc SPIW was prime example of that, Russian 'Abakan' in its early iterations was absolutely unrealistic too But in American case any requirement, regardless of how unrealistic it is, is wholeheartedly greeted with the industry because it means 'free' R&D money with very little chances of adoption and subsequent responsibilities for the end project

Which reminds me of the Rabid Bat: a not entirely serious example of procurement (edited version):

In early 2035, the thirty-fourth year of the war against Al Qaeda, the Pentagon issued a White Paper saying that the F22 Raptor, the front-line fighter plane of the United States, was nearing the end of its useful life and needed to be replaced. Not everyone agreed. Various budget-cutting organizations argued that the Raptor had never been used and thus no one could tell whether it had a useful life. Anyway, the job of the Air Force, killing third-world peasants and their families, had been co-opted by drones. America didn´t need a new fighter, said the critics. 

The Air Force countered that the new plane would look feral and make loud, exciting noises. To this, critics could find no rejoinder. Design studies began.

An early question was what to call the new fighter. By tradition, aircraft were named after aggressive but unintelligent birds (F-15 Eagle, F16 Fighting Falcon), unpleasant animals (AH-1 Cobra, F-18 Hornet) ghosts (F-4 Phantom, AC-130 Spectre) or Stone Age nomads (AH-64 Apache). However, something with more pizzazz was needed to get funding through Congress.

Discussion ensued. Suggestions were solicited from The Building, as the Pentagon calls itself. These ran from “F-40 Screaming Kerblam” to the politically marginal “Horrendous Dyke,” whose author believed that it would depress enemy fliers. Going with zoological tradition, the Air Force wanted to call it the Rabid Bat. A congressional wag weary of military price tags suggested “Priscilla,” because no pilot would then go near it and the country would be spared the expense of wars.  (His idea of painting it in floral patterns was not taken seriously.) 

The Air Force prevailed. The Rabid Bat was born.

Squabbling over specifications immediately began. Lockheed-Martin and Boeing Military Aircraft, both expected to bid, wanted a cruising speed of Mach 13, as this was technically impossible and would allow them to do lucrative design work until the entropic death of the solar system. A time-honored principle of governmental contraction is that if you are paid to solve a problem, the last thing you want is to succeed, because you then stop getting paid. This explains the anti-ballistic-missile program, racial policy, and Congress.

Secondary considerations were next addressed, such as speed, range, armament, and stealth. 

Lockheed-Martin said that the price of the program would only be about $987 billion, a steal. Historically-minded critics predicted that after the program was too far along to be abandoned, Lockheed-Martin would discover that the price would be…heh…rather more. This is a standard part of military contracting, with its own accounting category.

A prototype was duly built. Early flight trials began. It was then discovered by the investigative reporter Nickolas Fervently of the New York Times that due to a design error, the guns of the Rabid Bat pointed backward. A redesign, his sources had told him, would cost about $345 billion.

A flap ensued. It sufficiently threatened the flow of funds that Lockheed´s CEO, E. Johnston Farad, called a press conference. “It is necessary to understand the truly revolutionary nature of this aircraft,” he said,
...[Message truncated]
View Full Message
Apsyda

From: Apsyda

24-May

Its that if SIG knew how big the NGSW FC was going to be, they likely would have designed the receiver or feed system differently to account for it. I doubt any SIG engineer is happy with that big bridge rail over top of the action. And should they have known that the NGSW FC was large enough to have its own ZIP Code, they likely would have accounted for  that.

The barrel being easily replaceable doesn't really help much in the field. While our armorer friends in the world can smile about it, everyone using the gun now constantly has to be cognizant of the potentially quite short time to the barrel overheating. At which point there isn't much that can be done about it. Perhaps in the future they'll copy the PKP and put a Lewis radiator system over the barrel. Adding a several lbs to the firearm but giving it more sustained firepower capability.

EmericD

From: EmericD

24-May

Apsyda said:

Its that if SIG knew how big the NGSW FC was going to be, they likely would have designed the receiver or feed system differently to account for it. I doubt any SIG engineer is happy with that big bridge rail over top of the action. And should they have known that the NGSW FC was large enough to have its own ZIP Code, they likely would have accounted for that.

I agree that the rail over the feeding cover is far from ideal, but I don't think that it's related to the size of the NGSW FCS, which do not seems to be significantly longer than any commercial 1-8x LPVO.

Apsyda said:

The barrel being easily replaceable doesn't really help much in the field. While our armorer friends in the world can smile about it, everyone using the gun now constantly has to be cognizant of the potentially quite short time to the barrel overheating. At which point there isn't much that can be done about it. Perhaps in the future they'll copy the PKP and put a Lewis radiator system over the barrel. Adding a several lbs to the firearm but giving it more sustained firepower capability.

That's right, but since a rifle like the HK416 could fire 300+ rounds in full auto without overheating, and can fire again the same diet of ammo after 30 minutes of cooling, maybe the lack of "field QC" capability is more a theoretical issue than a real issue?

A 100-rds belt of 6.8x51 mm (with pouch) is ~3.1 kg, so 300 rds is already 9.3 kg of ammo... I don't think that the automatic rifleman will carry more than 4x100 rds (to "duplicate" the 4x200 rds of 5.56 mm currently carried).

stancrist

From: stancrist

24-May

EmericD said:

Our capability to draw opposite conclusions from the same set of informations will never ceased to puzzle me.

Well, that is one thing we agree on.  sunglasses

stancrist

From: stancrist

24-May

EmericD said:

       Apsyda said: The NGSW-AR is firing a hot magnum cartridge, but doesn't have a QC barrel.

The SIG NGSW-AR does have a QC barrel. Not very ergonomic and not designed to be changed when hot during combat, but a QC barrel.

Partial disassembly of the gun required + removeable-by-user-only-when-cold barrel =/= quick change barrel

stancrist

From: stancrist

24-May

EmericD said:

       Apsyda said: Its that if SIG knew how big the NGSW FC was going to be, they likely would have designed the receiver or feed system differently to account for it. I doubt any SIG engineer is happy with that big bridge rail over top of the action. And should they have known that the NGSW FC was large enough to have its own ZIP Code, they likely would have accounted for that.

I agree that the rail over the feeding cover is far from ideal, but I don't think that it's related to the size of the NGSW FCS, which do not seems to be significantly longer than any commercial 1-8x LPVO.

Judging by the graphic at 9:40 in this video ( https://youtu.be/ZrKOLyLUZmI?t=580 ), the problem is a result of poor planning by SIG engineers. 

With the side-opening top cover, an optic must be mounted either completely on the top cover, or fully on the section of rail behind the top cover.

If the NGSW FCS were to be positioned on the weapon with correct eye relief, it looks like the mount would clamp to both the top cover and the rear rail section, making it impossible to open the top cover.

stancrist

From: stancrist

24-May

Apsyda said:

The NGSW-AR...had to add a ridiculous bridging top rail because obviously there was little intercompany and intratrial communication as to how large the NGSW-FC optic would be.

The problem was not caused by a communication failure.  The bridging rail was needed because of a design flaw.

SIG had designed the LMG receiver so that only optics of certain dimensions and/or configurations could be used.

They knew a common FC optic would be used for both NGSW-R and -AR, and yet the SIG LMG was always seen fitted with a compact RDS, while the MCX Spear rifle usually had a much bigger LPVO.  Had the LMG been designed from the start to use the LPVO, the bridging rail likely would not have been needed.

Overview of the Sig Sauer MCX Spear and XM250

Guns.com recently got to hang out with the folks from Sig Sauer and learned about the company's successful submission to the Army's Next Generation Squad Wea...

stancrist

From: stancrist

24-May

The folks at Battle Order have joined in.  sunglasses

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

25-May

Nice, I love their posters. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

25-May

Watching this interview on SIG's 6.8 ammo:

https://youtu.be/yUVX_Bup0Ig?t=829

-Cases currently running "mid 70's" pressure aka around 75kpsi

-Claim the cases can be run to 120kpsi should the future require it

TOP