gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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APKWS Mini MLRS   Army Guns 20+mm

Started 5/9/19 by gatnerd; 7434 views.
Red7272

From: Red7272

7/9/19

gatnerd said...

But as I pointed out, the towed mortars come with a massive weight increase over APKWS, and require either a dedicated mortar vehicle, or must be towed by two separate vehicles. And it also requires a mortar team to operate.

EIMOS Expal Integrated Mortar System for wheeled vehicle

 

 

500kg system that can be integrated into any MRAP with a crew of 2 or 3. Range of 6,900 metres and 20 second to fire the first bomb after receiving coordinates. Any normal army would have 8 mortars in a platoon at battalion level. Even the US has them. Why not upgrade their existing assets and use those instead?  And lets talk about effect. Airburst 81 mm mortar bombs will wreck any enemy in the open or behind cover. Only overhead protection will save them. Imagine Wanat with the troops on the ground being able to call in 81 mm airburst on 20 second notice? Mortars are the most devastating ground weapon of the last 100 years. A huge percentage of casualties in every war since 1914 can be credited to mortars. 

renatohm

From: renatohm

7/9/19

81 mm? Hold my hummus.

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/spear-mk2-mortar-system/

120 mm mortar, 200 kg with manual reloading, Humvee-friendly.

Red7272

From: Red7272

8/9/19

renatohm said...

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/spear-mk2-mortar-system/

120 mm mortar, 200 kg with manual reloading, Humvee-friendly.

Also a range of about 6,500 metres and a soft recoil system which needs to be significantly more complex for the same accuracy. Also not really needed for the sort of role the rocket is intended for. The long range 120s with the mechanically deployed base plates I posted above are much longer ranged, if slower to fire and to redeploy.

 

They do remind me of an idea doing the rounds in the 80s or so. A mechanical base plate attached to the back of an APC like the M113 with 4 extra long 120 mm tubes. It could get off 12 to 16 rounds in about 15 seconds with the loaders standing on the roof of the APC. Not practical in an NBC environment, which I think is why it went nowhere.

  • Edited 08 September 2019 1:07  by  Red7272
Red7272

From: Red7272

8/9/19

gatnerd said...

By comparison, the APKWS MLRS weighs ~750lbs loaded with 23rds, and can be transported by 1x small vehicle that fits on a helicopter. And to fire, it requires only a gunner and a laser pointer man. 

How about something half the cost that can just be driven up to blast away direct and can still fire indirect?

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

8/9/19

"81 mm? Hold my hummus.

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/spear-mk2-mortar-system/

120 mm mortar, 200 kg with manual reloading, Humvee-friendly."

Now that, that is fucking cool. 

The US should definitely be snagging those, and that does seem like a more versatile system then the Mini MLRS. 

Probably the ideal setup would be to have the SPEAR as the dedicated 'fire support' vehicle for the platoon, and then have the Fletcher 4 shot APKWS mounted on regular troop transport vehicles. 

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

8/9/19

"30 meter CEP" I think is the problem for adopting the SPEAR Mk. 2.

And missiles have>cool factor than mortars.

Red7272

From: Red7272

8/9/19

Farmplinker said...

"30 meter CEP" I think is the problem for adopting the SPEAR Mk. 2.

Yeah, the 81 mm I mentioned has a CEP of 2 metres. I really don't think the rocket will go anywhere, as its trajectory is much too flat. It's practically a LOS weapon.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

9/9/19

"Yeah, the 81 mm I mentioned has a CEP of 2 metres. I really don't think the rocket will go anywhere, as its trajectory is much too flat. It's practically a LOS weapon."

CEP of 2 meters doesn't sound possible.

Both the 81mm Roll Control Guided Mortar and 120mm Guided Mortar talk about having ~10m CEP. 

"GD-OTS’s RCGM has been successfully demonstrated on both 81mm and 120mm Mortar platforms – Demonstrated end-to-end Guidance, Navigation and Control – Demonstrated Accuracy – Less than 10m median miss distance for both systems."

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2012/armaments/Wednesday13995habash.pdf

 

McPherson said PERM will more than double the range of the current 120 mm mortar to more than 10 miles and reduce the 80-meter median margin for error to within 10 meters. It also increases lethality by 250 percent by coming down near vertically as opposed to an angle.

https://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/marines-high-on-120-mm-mortar-after-test-1.390960

And an excellent discussion of guided mortars by one of my favorite military authors:

http://quarryhs.co.uk/Mortar%20systems.pdf

 

The 120mm is attractive a) because there are more guided 120mm kits available and b) the ability to use the 120mm THOR from SAAB:

https://saab.com/land/weapon-systems/warheads/thor/

Combined with the more vertical impact of the guided mortar round, which further increases fragmentation effect compared to mortars that impact sideways...

 

 

 

  • Edited 09 September 2019 5:32  by  gatnerd
pg55555

From: pg55555

9/9/19

.

 

IF you want "cool" then the obvious way ahead (5 to 10 years" is a simple box with opening lid containing small autonomous drones which can be programmed to search beyond certain boundaries and attack any defined target that they find.    It will mean that every truck, IFV and tank will need 5 inches of armour on their roofs !

The network "swarms" ideas of drones in the navies will have a devastating effect when translated to land warfare. 

 

Red7272

From: Red7272

9/9/19

gatnerd said...

CEP of 2 meters doesn't sound possible.

Both the 81mm Roll Control Guided Mortar and 120mm Guided Mortar talk about having ~10m CEP. 

"GD-OTS’s RCGM has been successfully demonstrated on both 81mm and 120mm Mortar platforms – Demonstrated end-to-end Guidance, Navigation and Control – Demonstrated Accuracy – Less than 10m median miss distance for both systems."

Why a guided bomb though?  A dedicated low collateral guided projectile might be needed for some engagements, but otherwise dumb proximity fused bombs will work for everything else. 

 

gatnerd said...

Combined with the more vertical impact of the guided mortar round, which further increases fragmentation effect compared to mortars that impact sideways..

You were happy with a point detonating 8 kg warhead that throws all its fragments back into the air a few posts ago. 

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