gatnerd

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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APKWS Mini MLRS   Army Guns 20+mm

Started 5/9/19 by gatnerd; 7434 views.
renatohm

From: renatohm

7/9/19

81 mm? Hold my hummus.

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/spear-mk2-mortar-system/

120 mm mortar, 200 kg with manual reloading, Humvee-friendly.

Red7272

From: Red7272

8/9/19

renatohm said...

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/spear-mk2-mortar-system/

120 mm mortar, 200 kg with manual reloading, Humvee-friendly.

Also a range of about 6,500 metres and a soft recoil system which needs to be significantly more complex for the same accuracy. Also not really needed for the sort of role the rocket is intended for. The long range 120s with the mechanically deployed base plates I posted above are much longer ranged, if slower to fire and to redeploy.

 

They do remind me of an idea doing the rounds in the 80s or so. A mechanical base plate attached to the back of an APC like the M113 with 4 extra long 120 mm tubes. It could get off 12 to 16 rounds in about 15 seconds with the loaders standing on the roof of the APC. Not practical in an NBC environment, which I think is why it went nowhere.

  • Edited 08 September 2019 1:07  by  Red7272
Red7272

From: Red7272

8/9/19

gatnerd said...

By comparison, the APKWS MLRS weighs ~750lbs loaded with 23rds, and can be transported by 1x small vehicle that fits on a helicopter. And to fire, it requires only a gunner and a laser pointer man. 

How about something half the cost that can just be driven up to blast away direct and can still fire indirect?

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

8/9/19

"81 mm? Hold my hummus.

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/spear-mk2-mortar-system/

120 mm mortar, 200 kg with manual reloading, Humvee-friendly."

Now that, that is fucking cool. 

The US should definitely be snagging those, and that does seem like a more versatile system then the Mini MLRS. 

Probably the ideal setup would be to have the SPEAR as the dedicated 'fire support' vehicle for the platoon, and then have the Fletcher 4 shot APKWS mounted on regular troop transport vehicles. 

Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

8/9/19

"30 meter CEP" I think is the problem for adopting the SPEAR Mk. 2.

And missiles have>cool factor than mortars.

Red7272

From: Red7272

8/9/19

Farmplinker said...

"30 meter CEP" I think is the problem for adopting the SPEAR Mk. 2.

Yeah, the 81 mm I mentioned has a CEP of 2 metres. I really don't think the rocket will go anywhere, as its trajectory is much too flat. It's practically a LOS weapon.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

9/9/19

"Yeah, the 81 mm I mentioned has a CEP of 2 metres. I really don't think the rocket will go anywhere, as its trajectory is much too flat. It's practically a LOS weapon."

CEP of 2 meters doesn't sound possible.

Both the 81mm Roll Control Guided Mortar and 120mm Guided Mortar talk about having ~10m CEP. 

"GD-OTS’s RCGM has been successfully demonstrated on both 81mm and 120mm Mortar platforms – Demonstrated end-to-end Guidance, Navigation and Control – Demonstrated Accuracy – Less than 10m median miss distance for both systems."

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2012/armaments/Wednesday13995habash.pdf

 

McPherson said PERM will more than double the range of the current 120 mm mortar to more than 10 miles and reduce the 80-meter median margin for error to within 10 meters. It also increases lethality by 250 percent by coming down near vertically as opposed to an angle.

https://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/marines-high-on-120-mm-mortar-after-test-1.390960

And an excellent discussion of guided mortars by one of my favorite military authors:

http://quarryhs.co.uk/Mortar%20systems.pdf

 

The 120mm is attractive a) because there are more guided 120mm kits available and b) the ability to use the 120mm THOR from SAAB:

https://saab.com/land/weapon-systems/warheads/thor/

Combined with the more vertical impact of the guided mortar round, which further increases fragmentation effect compared to mortars that impact sideways...

 

 

 

  • Edited 09 September 2019 5:32  by  gatnerd
pg55555

From: pg55555

9/9/19

.

 

IF you want "cool" then the obvious way ahead (5 to 10 years" is a simple box with opening lid containing small autonomous drones which can be programmed to search beyond certain boundaries and attack any defined target that they find.    It will mean that every truck, IFV and tank will need 5 inches of armour on their roofs !

The network "swarms" ideas of drones in the navies will have a devastating effect when translated to land warfare. 

 

Red7272

From: Red7272

9/9/19

gatnerd said...

CEP of 2 meters doesn't sound possible.

Both the 81mm Roll Control Guided Mortar and 120mm Guided Mortar talk about having ~10m CEP. 

"GD-OTS’s RCGM has been successfully demonstrated on both 81mm and 120mm Mortar platforms – Demonstrated end-to-end Guidance, Navigation and Control – Demonstrated Accuracy – Less than 10m median miss distance for both systems."

Why a guided bomb though?  A dedicated low collateral guided projectile might be needed for some engagements, but otherwise dumb proximity fused bombs will work for everything else. 

 

gatnerd said...

Combined with the more vertical impact of the guided mortar round, which further increases fragmentation effect compared to mortars that impact sideways..

You were happy with a point detonating 8 kg warhead that throws all its fragments back into the air a few posts ago. 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

9/9/19

"Why a guided bomb though?  A dedicated low collateral guided projectile might be needed for some engagements, but otherwise dumb proximity fused bombs will work for everything else."

In general, I think everything that can be guided should be. 

But specifically, for the vehicle application I think it's essential. The reason being the relatively few mortars that a small vehicle can carry. 

I'm not sure about the SPEAR, but the Marine's EFSS had a 30 shot capacity:

With a relatively limited number of rounds, its essential that each round be as accurate as possible:

Given the relatively low cost of guided mortars ($10-15k) there's really no reason not to use them. 

 

"You were happy with a point detonating 8 kg warhead that throws all its fragments back into the air a few posts ago."

Ideally I'd like to see a airbursting MAPAM fragmentation shell developed for the 70mm rocket as well. MAPAM/ pre-fragmented is really how all HE should be designed.

Along those line's I'm quite curious how the 70mm Flechette rockets perform.

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