autogun

Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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NGSW evaluation update   Small Arms <20mm

Started 31/7/20 by autogun; 14999 views.
poliorcetes

From: poliorcetes

18-Jan

With the known information in mind, what cartridge architecture do you people think it could accept more pressure? textron, tv or sig?

BTW I would accept what you and nincomp say about steel base insert on tv's case. It's just that since American military branches are quite against bullpup, and that beretta's SAW design is bullpup too and not belt-feed, that I understand beretta's election as a quite strong trade-off

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

18-Jan

autogun said:

but I am suspicious of the SIG 20%. After all, the most massive part of the case - the base - is still of brass, only the case walls are steel.

SIG's base is Stainless Steel, then the body of the case is brass.

I agree though; I'm skeptical of the weight savings as well.

I think at best the SIG case is 20% lighter then a brass case.

Whereas the TV complete cartridge is 30% lighter the a brass cartridge (so like a ~70% case weight reduction vs brass case)

smg762

From: smg762

18-Jan

Why do all the NGSW  guns have suppressors, is the US planning on giving one to every grunt?

Also whats the energies of the 277 tvcs...is it about 2000ft  lbs like the 7mm-08?

 and wasnt the original LSAT goal to reduce weight vs 556....why did they go with 7mm ammo in 20 round mags?  Assuming the ammo is at least 15 grams, with a rifle thats 3.2kg or higher, thats a big weight increase. Should have gone with a 224 valkyrie.

  • Edited 18 January 2021 11:26  by  smg762
Farmplinker

From: Farmplinker

18-Jan

I read someone (not a SIG employee) who claimed SIG was getting their weight reduction by comparing performance. A conventional brass cartridge would weigh x to achieve the performance specifications; our cartridge achieved the performance specifications at 20% less weight than x. Sounds plausible, anyway.

nincomp

From: nincomp

18-Jan

I agree with Farmplinker.  I think that the 20% reduction that SIG talks about is vs a comparable cartridge like the 270 WSM.  One article I saw said that the existing round is about the same weight as 7.62x51.

nincomp

From: nincomp

18-Jan

smg762 said...

Also whats the energies of the 277 tvcs...is it about 2000ft  lbs like the 7mm-08?

No, considerably more. We have seen numbers of 3000fps with a 135 grain bullet, so closer to 2700ft-lbs, which makes it more like a 270 WSM.  The goal is to penetrate hard body armor at several hundred meters, 600 iirc.  It is to have a suppressor.  As near as I can tell, other goals included less recoil than a .22 rimfire, lighter weight than the average feather, and the abilities to tie the soldiers boots and walk the General's dog.  

  • Edited 18 January 2021 12:52  by  nincomp
renatohm

From: renatohm

18-Jan

USMC is already transitioning to widespread use of suppressors, so it's not surprising that Army could follow suit.

autogun

From: autogun

19-Jan

gatnerd said:

SIG's base is Stainless Steel, then the body of the case is brass.

I should know better than to rely on my memory these days... rage

In reply toRe: msg 107
stancrist

From: stancrist

23-Jan

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Red7272

From: Red7272

24-Jan

I remember thinking that Emeric's neckless polymer case from a decade or so ago was the way to go and seeing it realised I still think that. Enough in common with existing designs to not frighten the conservatives (like me) and a significant improvement in performance. 

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