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Military Guns and Ammunition

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This is intended for people interested in the subject of military guns and their ammunition, with emphasis on automatic weapons.

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Importance of Naval Guns on a Modern Warship   Naval Guns

Started 19/8/20 by Greg (N9NWO); 10781 views.
Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

10/9/20

Radar on the side of the 57mm is not for detecting or searching of aircraft but for Ballistics measurements,similar radar can be seen on some of the 152mm cannon Coalitsia variants , its used to tracking and ranging the shot and correcting the fire solution.

The Armata program is currently suffering delays some due to cost but also due to huge issues developing the Engine for the platform. Since 1930's the evolved the V-2 engine powers most Soviet/Russian tanks, so i wouldn't be surprised if at some point someone decides to uprate the V-2 yet again to 1800HP , they want for Armata or easier jet fit a 2000hp gas turbine 

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

10/9/20

Mr. T (MrT4) said:

Radar on the side of the 57mm is not for detecting or searching of aircraft but for Ballistics measurements,similar radar can be seen on some of the 152mm cannon Coalitsia variants , its used to tracking and ranging the shot and correcting the fire solution.

I had thought that the Radar was used for the Active Protection System (APS)? That would make more sense, as thats the only type of system that could detect a rapidly incoming rocket / missile / shell. Presumably it could also detect nearby flying objects like helicopters or drones.

For firing solutions, I'd imagine they are using a laser range finder + ballistic calculator, as used by most other Fire Control Units.

Mr. T (MrT4)

From: Mr. T (MrT4)

10/9/20

Muzzle velocity radars are becoming quite common in the artillery world and also on ship guns.

Radar is pointed along the barrel .

You can get the next level of accuracy if you can correct fire in real time ,Radar is following the shell, measuring actual muzzle velocity and correcting the fire.

Koalitsia-SV also had MV radar with two big radar dishes till they 'streamlined the design ither for a lower cost or  a lower power unit is mounted somewhere else than original units

The longer the radar measuring range more accurate the corrections are but i reckon the went for smaller radars also because of the emissions these generate , you don't want the opponents detecting radars on every SPG

 

Tech is now cheap enough for us to use for MV measuring with rifles

''The ability to accurately measure and analyze muzzle velocity in real-time is critical when firing artillery. In fact, muzzle velocity data is as important as meteorological data and projectile characteristics to ensure the best possible firing accuracy, accounting for up to 40 percent of the error budget in artillery shooting.

Several factors can affect a round’s muzzle velocity, including weapon conditions, tube tolerance, ammunition lot variance, propellant conditions, crew performance, recoil system conditions and deployment. It is critical to compensate for these factors to achieve the desired accuracy by adjusting gun settings based on the actual muzzle velocity.

Artillery firing accuracy is described in terms of precision and bias. The objective is for multiple artillery rounds to strike a target with a small mean point of impact (MPI) and high precision.''

roguetechie

From: roguetechie

10/9/20

One part of the FCS program was a series of multifunction aesa panels which is looking increasingly more prescient as time goes by and we see what the military wants long term.

TonyDiG

From: TonyDiG

10/9/20

taschoene said...

In the same tests, they also fired HVP from a Navy 127mm deck gun and something that looks like a 155mm Advanced Gun System test rig.  

It's been intriguing to watch the pivot; when HVP was announced a few years ago, it was sold as an extended range anti-surface round, but this test shows the transition to air and missile defense has been fairly complete.

 

There was a press release about the test that came out yesterday.  The test was fairly extensive.  Let me quote:

"The main live-fire scenario took place at White Sands, where bombers launched six BQM-167 targeting drones to simulate a cruise missile threat. Multiple systems targeted the BQM-167s, including the HVP round from the Paladin and a U.S. Navy deck gun, along with an AIM-9X Sidewinder missile fired from an F-16, an MQ-9, and a ground launcher. The outcome of the other launches is not public, Roper [Will Roper, the Air Force’s assistant secretary for acquisition] said, but the HVP’s success is and was a success story for a relatively unknown capability started at the Strategic Capabilities Office in 2013."

 

I was updating my datapage on the 5"/62 yesterday to incorporate the HVP program pivot from anti-ship to air defense.  It's rare to see a recent DoD procurement program where the cost per shot has radically reduced rather than radically increased.  Basically, this is because the program has gone from perhaps a dozen railguns needing ammunition to having over a thousand 5" and 155 mm guns that need ammunition, thus amortizing development costs over a much larger volume.  If HVP lives up to its promise, I think that the railgun program will be mothballed in a couple of years, especially as funding has been greatly reduced in the past couple of years.

gatnerd

From: gatnerd

10/9/20

TonyDiG said:

If HVP lives up to its promise, I think that the railgun program will be mothballed in a couple of years, especially as funding has been greatly reduced in the past couple of years.

Lets hope so; I never really got the purpose of the railgun. Essentially a super expensive cannon that requires a tremendous amount of electrical power.

Per BAE, the standard 5" HVP hits 50 miles, the AGS 5" 70 miles, while railgun would hit 100 miles.

Railgun just seems like a lot of effort to deliver a 5" shell the extra 30-50 miles, especially in light of the far longer range and payload of Anti-Ship missiles. 

TonyDiG

From: TonyDiG

11/9/20

It's a logical extension of AGS.  The concept is that the firing ship is too far offshore to be reliably targeted by shore-based weapon systems..  So, AGS - and ERGM and BTERM - was about 50 miles and railgun about 100 miles.  As the US Marines have pretty much abandoned amphibious attack, the need for long range gunfire support has evaporated.  And so, HVP is now repurposed as a cheaper air defense weapon which can also be used for land attack if desired.

taschoene

From: taschoene

11/9/20

gatnerd said:

The T15 57mm is really an awesome vehicle. 

.....

All in all it seems like one of the most versatile armored vehicles ever produced.

Remarkably similar in many ways to the  late 1970s Begleitpanzer 57 -- 57mm gun, coax MG, TOW or HOT ATGM, three dismounted infantry (scouts or ATGM team?) 

autogun

From: autogun

11/9/20

That's a much better photo of the Begleitpanzer 57 than any others I've seen. May I ask where it comes from?

taschoene

From: taschoene

11/9/20

It's hosted on Imgur.  I found it via Tanks-Encyclopedia, which credits topwar.ru.  But I'm sure it's a manufacturer photo originally -- it's also in the 1983-84 Jane's Armored Fighting Vehicles entry for the 57mm Support Tank, for example.

Worth noting that Tanks-Encyclopedia says there were just two human loaders in the troop compartment, not infantry.  Jane's says three infantry, but that might be a difference between the prototype and what they planned for a production version.

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